UJ Ramdas, Jayson Gaignard and Chris Plough On Partnerships and Burning The Ships

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Today, we have a crazy episode from inside a jeep in the Bahamas with three rotating guests. First, there is UJ Ramdas, co-founder of Intelligent Change and the co-creator of the Productivity Planner and the hugely popular Five Minute Journal. Next, we have Chris Plough who you became familiar with in Episode 011. Chris built, ran, and sold an eight-figure global consulting and hosting company. We also have Jayson Gaignard who you heard from in Episode 001. Jayson is the founder of MastermindTalks and the author of Mastermind Dinners.

The first half of the episode will be myself, Chris, and UJ. Jayson joins us for the last half of the show. We discuss why it’s so crucial to always be looking for ways to get uncomfortable. We also chat about whether it is better to go solo in business or find a partner. UJ shares how to figure out your strengths and improve your self-awareness, and how to properly build a team.

Key Points From This Episode:

  • Hear as UJ Ramdas shares more about his vision for Intelligent Change.
  • Learn more about the goals and intentions of the Fail On Podcast and why it was started.
  • Find out at what point Rob overcame his fear and turned his knowledge into action.
  • Hear how your point of comfort makes it harder to make decisions versus a point of pain.
  • Discover how different personalities in business lead to different business decisions.
  • Find out more about solo endeavors versus having a partner in business.
  • Understand why you need to make sure you are aligned with what you really want.
  • Hear why Chris says that having core knowledge of yourself is critical.
  • Learn about the difference between control of a company and partnerships.
  • Find out why UJ defines failure as data.
  • Jayson talks about his take on partnerships and why he prefers working solo.
  • Understand what it means to get clear on and truly define your perfect day.
  • Hear why having a really strong value fit cannot be overstated in any kind of partnership.
  • Find out about some of UJ’s struggles and challenges in building a great team.
  • Learn why respect is fundamental when it comes to partnerships and relationships.
  • Understand why getting to know people before diving into partnerships is crucial.
  • And much more!

Tweetables:

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[0:29:09.1]

[0:30:12.1]

[0:33:38.1]

[0:37:28:1]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:

UJ Ramdas — http://www.ujramdas.com/

UJ on Twitter — https://twitter.com/ujramdas

Intelligent Change — https://www.intelligentchange.com/

Productivity Planner — https://www.intelligentchange.com/products/the-productivity-planner

The Five Minute Journal — https://www.intelligentchange.com/products/the-five-minute-journal

MastermindTalks — http://www.mastermindtalks.com/

Jayson on Twitter — https://twitter.com/jaysongaignard

Jayson’s book, Mastermind Dinnershttps://www.amazon.com/Mastermind-Dinners-Relationships-Connecting-Influencers/dp/0692360026

Jayson’s podcast, The MastermindTalks Podcast — http://www.mmtpodcast.com/

Chris Plough — https://chrisplough.com/

Chris on Twitter — https://twitter.com/chrisplough/

Kolbe Personality Tests — http://kolbe.com/

Richard Feynman — http://www.feynman.com/

James Wallace — http://www.wallace.vc/

Daniel Pink — http://www.danpink.com/

Malcolm Gladwell — http://gladwell.com/

Phil McKernan — http://philipmckernan.com/

Cameron Herold — https://www.cameronherold.com/

Spoke Club — http://www.thespokeclub.com/

Luxy Hair — https://www.luxyhair.com/

Alex Ikonn — http://www.alexikonn.com/

John Gottman — https://www.gottman.com/

Malcom Gladwell’s book, Blinkhttps://www.amazon.com/Blink-Power-Thinking-Without/dp/0316010669/

Andy Drish — https://andydrish.com/

The Foundation — https://thefoundation.com/

Transcript Below

Read Full Transcript

EPISODE 012

“UR: Having a really strong value fit cannot be overstated in any kind of partnership. You have marriage, or business partnership, or whatever. Even with the employees that especially like along kind of core team that you’re looking to build. That kind of fit, it’s so important to have that. Because if you do, then everything seems like magic and if it don’t and everything seems like hitting your head against the wall.”

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:31.1] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Fail on Podcast where we explore the hardships and obstacles today’s industry leaders face on their journey to the top of their fields, through careful insight and thoughtful conversation. By embracing failure, we’ll show you how to build momentum without being consumed by the result.

Now please welcome your host, Rob Nunnery.

[INTRO]

[0:00:57.1] RN: Hey there and welcome to the show that believes you are destined for more and that failing your way to an inspired life is the only way to get there. Today, we have got a crazy episode from inside a jeep in the Bahamas with three rotating guest. We’ve got UJ Ramdas, cofounder of Intelligent Change and the co-creator of the Productivity Planner and the hugely popular Five Minute Journal. We’ve got Chris Plough who you became familiar with in the previous episode. Chris built, ran, and sold an eight figure global consulting and hosting company.

We also have Jayson Gaignard who you heard from in Episode 1. Jayson is the founder of Mastermind Talks and the author of Mastermind Dinners. The first half of the episode will be myself, Chris and UJ and then Jayson will join us for the last half of the show but we discuss why it’s crucial to always be looking for ways to get comfortable whether it’s better to go solo in business or find a partner, how to figure out your strengths and improve your self-awareness and how to properly build a team.

But first, if you’d like to stay up to date on all Fail On Podcast interviews and key takeaways from each guest, simply go to failon.com and sign up for our newsletter at the bottom of the page. That’s failon.com and just as an a side, the episode gets cut short and very abruptly around the 45 minute mark due to an ultimate power outage.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:30.1] RN: Hello and welcome to a very special edition of the Fail on Podcast. We are in a beat up jeep driven by Jayson Gaignard here in the Bahamas. We got UJ Ramdas, we can’t stop laughing, we have Chris Plough also on the headsets.

[0:02:46.8] CP: I’m the only professional here I think, you guys are a wreck.

[0:02:50.6] UR: We’re doing the first ever podcast on the road in the Bahamas on the island called Eleuthera and it’s going to be a fun time.

[0:02:54.8] RN: UJ, who are you? So people know who you are?

[0:02:57.3] UR: I don’t know man. I forget sometimes.

[0:03:01.2] RN: We got the peanut gallery Jayson who doesn’t have a headset because he only has three.

[0:03:06.8] JG: Equipment.

[0:03:08.8] RN: But he does own the podcast equipment so he did contribute a little bit.

[0:03:12.6] CP: I’ll introduce my friend UJ. UJ is one of the most systematic people I know at hacking productivity, getting to the center of the world and slowly, this robotic man is gaining empathy and a soul. I am proud to be on that journey with him.

[0:03:28.6] RN: Just looking at him. Fantastic intro.

[0:03:31.5] UR: Okay, that was unexpected and interesting. I do not know how to process this.

[0:03:46.0] RN: UJ, would you agree with that or…

[0:03:47.3] UR: I think that’s an interesting kind of take on a side of our personality.

[0:03:55.8] RN: What would your take be?

[0:04:01.1] UR: I’d say I’m a human being having experiences through time and space that are evolving over time.

[0:04:16.5] RN: Now I’m trying to process that.

[0:04:22.2] JG: Journaling. So, UJ helped to create both the Productivity journal, The Five Minute Journal as well as other products and he is…

[0:04:29.6] UR: Productivity Planner but I appreciate your…

[0:04:30.6] CP: Productivity Planner, I do apologize, yes. I’m a user, I just apparently don’t know the title.

[0:04:36.0] RN: Or you used the knock offs.

[0:04:38.4] CP: only on the android but the real thing is coming. But he is, he’s incredibly good though at taking a look at systems, at life, breaking them down, understand them in a much more granular level and then using that to help people forward. If I were to think about UJ, absolutely a life hacker, absolutely a productivity and focus hacker and definitely a student of life.

[0:05:01.1] RN: What’s your vision with intelligent change? Are you looking at creating more products or are you looking to scale the current products?

[0:05:06.3] UR: I don’t see the difference between first and second point, I think both makes sense. New products and scaling current business also makes sense. We’re also — we have about 15% chance of dying on this car ride. The Cliff hangers. Cliff hanger is living man, at this point.

[0:05:30.1] CP: May simply be for us. This is an experience for us.

[0:05:35.1] RN: In the Bahamas, you can drive on the left side of the road and Jayson chooses to drive on the far left side of the road, also called the ditch.

[0:05:42.3] JG: That’s my joke, the group reaction.

[0:05:46.4] RN: Everybody’s laughing, you just can’t hear.

[0:05:48.9] JG: You can add in that.

[0:05:49.6] RN: Well, UJ can’t laugh so he’s processing it still.

[0:05:53.6] UR: No, I can laugh. You guys have heard my laugh.

[0:05:56.5] JG: He’s asking everybody else. What is your intentions with this podcast?

[0:06:02.5] CP: To repeat for those who can’t hear, Rob, what are your intentions with this podcast?

[0:06:07.2] RN: With today’s episode or in general?

[0:06:08.1] CP: No, I mean, in general, what do you hope to accomplish through this beautiful something — insert a word that makes sense there.

[0:06:15.0] RN: Sure. My intention is to — this is an issue I struggled with starting out in business was I was — We’re having a tickle fest. I’m tickling the driver just so you know. No, my intention was, I was really paralyzed by fear starting out and I really wish I had something that was pushing me outside my comfort zone, pushing me to take action rather than just analyzing everything too much.

My intention is to talk to — I want to say inspiring guests like you guys but to talk to guys like you that are really good at taking action and inspiring the listeners to do the same essentially.

[0:07:02.6] UR: All right, cool. Now back to your questions.

[0:07:07.8] RN: All right. What kind of additional products would intelligent change create? Yeah, that’s all I got, no follow up questions, no nothing, awesome, thanks guys. Hope that was…

[0:07:19.3] CP: to be fair, I was leaving space for more and UJ is like, now talk about me.

[0:07:24.8] RN: I just thought it was dead. Everybody’s waiting and there was like five seconds of open time, I just wanted to spare him some discomfort.

[0:07:35.1] CP: I’m very comfortable with open space.

[0:07:37.3] UR: Okay, good to know.

[0:07:39.6] CP: Silent air time. So you’ve had several conversations with people about this whole, move faster, begin rather than being paralyzed with fear. Do you feel that you’ve achieved some nuggets for either you or for the audience that could really shift things? I’m curious, what have you found along the journey? Is there anything that’s really resonated with you where you’re like damn, that is awesome, that’s really made a difference? Or is this a continuing journey?

[0:08:03.9] RN: I think it’s actually boils down to it really simple thing and everybody said it a different way but it all comes back to the same thing which is you know, you’re never going to have the perfect idea, it doesn’t exist. Just get started, take action, start moving and then as you get going, doors open, you start to see it through a line of what’s working, what’s not working and also, you get to see what you actually like doing, what you’re passionate about.

I don’t really like that word passionate just because it’s so overused I think. It’s more about is there an actual need versus who cares what you’re passionate about if it doesn’t — if there’s not, if it doesn’t solve anything for somebody else?

[0:08:45.6] CP: This is advice that we’ve all heard many times in our lives and yet we still get paralyzed right? From your experience, because you’ve obviously moved forward to this podcast right? After potentially a period and I don’t know but a period of fear a period of where you were deciding whether you should, what is that inflection point, what’s that point of tipping that allowed you to move forward regardless of having heard this advice before?

[0:09:05.8] RN: Yeah, even Jayson was like, dude, you’re doing like a business interview podcast, interviewing guest, talking about business and starting up and all of that? Yeah man, because you know, yeah, there’s a lot already out there right? But at the same time, it’s something that I find really interesting and it’s something that I don’t think anybody’s really talking about specifically is the idea of embracing failure and leaning into it.

Because all of this podcast you know, it’s mostly guys that are promoting their books, it’s mostly people looking for promotion which is fine right? At the end of the day, I’d rather dig in to the really tough struggles, not the wins and the glitz and the glamour and how beautiful your life is now but talking back to when you’re sleeping on a couch or when you had less than $100 in your bank account, that’s the stuff that — I think that’s the stuff people really gain the most information out of when you’re hearing, Chris, you’ve been an entrepreneur for more than a decade right?

For you — not for you specifically but a lot of people that have been in business for a long time, it’s really hard for them to go back to the beginning where they were stuck and paralyzed by fear. I think taking it back and digging into that area is what’s most useful for the listener in terms of if it’s somebody that doesn’t have a business but is just getting started.

[0:10:26.5] CP: Yeah, 100%, I think that this is a podcast, this is a voice, this is everything else is unique and something that needs to be other. I encourage you and applaud you for doing it but just a slightly more personal question if you don’t mind which is, when did that knowledge of I know I need to move forward, I know that it’s about movement, that it’s about creating for others.

What was that moment for you where you overcame the fear? How did that knowledge sink deeper into action, what was that for you?

[0:10:51.2] RN: Sure, I guess I was in a fortunate circumstance where I had some resources you know? I’ve had successful businesses. I could take the time and actually let things digest and let things settle and figure out which direction I wanted to go which I don’t know if that’s good or if that’s bad because I usually work my best when I burn the ships and there’s a serious fire coming towards me and I have to move.

I do better with the pressure in a sense versus having time to think and plan and analyze what my next step is. For me, just a little bit more context, I’m coming out of an advertising business that was heavily — that was a heavy cash flow business but not really a tangible asset that I can sell and it was very reliant on myself and my partner at the time to generate the revenue and profit.

For me, it was really hard to step out of a business that was making money and move towards something else even though I knew it was the right thing to do. For me it was kind of burning the ships and that aspect of I’m turning away money on this side and stepping into something that I care more about which is helping people like Jayson, he’s over here…

[0:12:07.4] JG: I’m laughing because we have a thousand dollars’ worth of podcast equipment and my window won’t go up and the car won’t lock. We’re leaving the podcast with it.

[0:12:19.2] RN: He’s laughing because…

[0:12:19.5] CP: Under the seats.

[0:12:20.6] RN: He’s laughing because we’re in a piece of crap car and we’ve got a thousand dollars’ worth of podcast equipment in here and his…

[0:12:25.6] CP: No way to lock it up.

[0:12:27.6] RN: Yeah, the car doesn’t lock and the window’s permanently down so hopefully it doesn’t rain and hopefully there’s nobody looking to start a podcast in the Bahamas.

[0:12:35.4] CP: Look, we can just lock some of it here in the glove box.

[0:12:38.5] JG: Anyway, back to…

[0:12:40.0] CP: So, what you’ve shared there, I mean, our journeys are incredibly similar right? In that I think that one of the most dangerous points for entrepreneur and UJ, I’d love to hear your thoughts on this as well is when you hit that point of comfort because that point of comfort makes it harder to make a decision versus a point of pain or even desperation forces action right?

Or a point when everything’s in flow so it’s the opposite. Everything’s in flow and you can’t help but act because it’s just a point of flow. Those two are getting a much easier places to be but to hit a point of comfort, it’s hard to walk away from that because you have security which is a human basic need right? Once you have that, it’s like, why would you ever move yourself out of that comfort zone? But we know to grow, that it has to happen.

[0:13:22.2] RN: totally.

[0:13:23.1] CP: I applaud the action without a doubt and I think there’s often a misconception that you’ve made it, that’s one of the most dangerous places to be for somebody who’s committed to growth to entrepreneurship to everything else. My thoughts, I’m curious how you guys feel about that.

[0:13:37.9] UR: Yeah, this whole thing is very — its based on comparison. Made it compared to maybe somebody who is earning average income and the country we’re in for example. The human mind can’t say without comparison, I think that’s a fundamental kind of law or need.

I just like to set my sights higher, I just like to look at people who I really admire, who really inspire me from what they’ve done and I also look for people, I think it’s a really important concept to share my natural style. For example, kind of you mentioned Rob that your natural self is like, you like going to ships and take action and you prefer not to plan, analyze and look ahead.

I’m the opposite. Actually, I like to burn the bridges but I also like to plan and analyze.

[0:14:28.2] RN: A plan B.

[0:14:29.5] UR: I don’t believe in plan B’s, I like plan A’s. Really good plan A’s and plan A2’s. To me, what I like is, I like to have enough time to — so I can map everything out and deploy things as any — the point I’m trying to make is, having a certain level of discomfort or I guess stretch points are really important in life.

One way to do it is to always have kind of as I mentioned, have your sights up to someone that you admire who is on way more than you have and just keeps you in check. The other one is, I just like to pepper my schedule with things that I know are going to make me feel uncomfortable and help me learn a lot and…

[0:15:10.7] RN: Like what kind of stuff out of curiosity?

[0:15:13.0] UR: For example, right now, one of the things that I frankly know nothing about or very little about is investing and understanding how to deploy these resources and I got a friend who is very good at understanding that and knowing that and doing that and that’s his work. Every two weeks, we’ll sit down and we’ll do like a four, five hour session and dive in deeper into the fundamentals of how he does what he does.

That’s an example, also like to — to me, people who have done something in the industry that’s completely different from my own and so I love doing is diving like deep into anything. Whether it be myself, if I’m diving into a product or if I’m learning from somebody or I’m teaching somebody and again, to go deep you need time and I feel like three to five hour stretches is plenty of time to get a nice deep learning session.

That answer your question somewhat Chris?

[0:16:09.4] CP: Yeah, it does. Gives context of slightly different views upon this right? I think that the commonality here that you just expressed is that we all look for a plan A which I do. You tend to be a bit more strategic than some people are. I tend to be a bit of a first start so I jump in and try to learn along the way right?

Rob, my sense is that you’re somewhere in the middle though I could be a little wrong in that because we’re just getting to know each other’s stories.

[0:16:35.1] RN: Yup.

[0:16:35.9] UR: Is that a yes, no?

[0:16:36.8] CP: He’s playing paparazzi and taking pictures of each of us.

[0:16:39.4] RN: Sorry, I took a picture so everybody could have some context to what the visual is right now. Jason’s eating an apple, Chris is wearing some pink flowery sunglasses and…

[0:16:51.0] JG: This is my daughter’s sunglasses.

[0:16:54.1] RN: Jason said, they’re Eva, her daughter’s sunglasses and Chris’s gigantic head’s probably going to snap them.

[0:16:59.2] CP: Gigantic head. Actually kind of fun.

[0:17:05.2] JG: Little Indian man in the backseat.

[0:17:06.5] RN: Sorry Chris, reframe that question again to me?

[0:17:09.2] CP: No, it wasn’t a question, it was an observation. He’s significantly more strategic than I am, I’m a bit of a first start, jump in and learn along the way, I prefer that, my sense of you is being somewhere in the middle.

[0:17:19.9] RN: Yeah, I would say so, my Kolbe is like, my quick start’s very high.

[0:17:24.0] UR: What’s your Kolbe?

[0:17:25.4] RN: I don’t remember all of the categories but I remember my quick start was super high. It’s actually funny because my former partner and I in the last business, it was an interesting partnership because we had literally the exact same Kolbe score. Which obviously is not an ideal situation right? Because we have the same strings.

We didn’t complement each other at all which was I love him as a person and we just had the same skill set but it wasn’t going to work in the long term as a partnership so I’m happy to be starting kind of fresh on my own and I know I need a really good systems and processes type, operational person in the future. It’s a really good lesson learned.

[0:18:06.1] CP: If you don’t mind, a slightly different line of question, because I think this is relevant to everybody here. We had a conversation before this about partners or no partner’s right? I know that UJ has worked very well with a particular partner, in intelligent change right? I guess starting with you Jay, what are your thoughts on solo endeavors versus having a partner in business?

[0:18:29.2] UR: Well, partner is just like anything else, you got to pick them well and like especially if it’s a long term business or something like for example, Intelligent Change is something that we realize we don’t want to sell it. It’s a company we’ll be able to build long term.

It’s something that you want to — kind of Rob mentioned this complimentary skill sets which is really important. Similar skill sets and similar modes of action which is what Kolbe tests for then it’s not ideal because you’re both doing the same things, there’s no diversification.

And then, the other thing is you know, core need is sharing the same vision and having the same values like the hardest conversation that I actually have are the conversations about values. It’s about where do we see this, does this line up with what we believe and you know, how quickly can we make it happen.

It’s the, do we align in the same vision, the specific day to day decisions, there’s almost very little affection on that. The medium trend is a bit refreshing because sometimes I think we need to prioritize one thing over another but as long as you’re having fun and you believe you're building something great and you’re willing to have a hard conversation, it’s kind of like I’ve never been married but it’s kind of like a marriage.

You sign up for something in the long term and then you just believe the best in the other person and you keep reiterating what’s important to you and you keep trying to understand the persona and take it from there.

In terms of like I definitely know in my life, I’m going to have not just one but many partnerships in businesses and also have such extreme strengths and weaknesses. I’m putting together a few things, I’m really bad at a lot of things. I need to have people around me that control for those weaknesses and so I’m going to work in teams and companies I’m going to have, I have tons of teams and definitely a bunch of partners.

Because as long as you’re aligned, I feel like I have a decent handle on it and I’m going to create a bunch of cool stuff in the world. In terms of solo, I don’t know. It would be cool to do stuff, I don’t have tons of experience with it to be honest so I can’t really comment.

[0:20:36.9] RN: Yeah, fair. Chris, I know you aren’t into ventures right now with a couple of partners. Tell us how that looks, do you guys complement each other, what’s everybody bringing to the table that makes that work?

[0:20:48.5] CP: Yeah, just to take a step back, similarly, my last business was involving the partner, amazing guy as far as trust and our ability to complement each other on working skill set but the point at which it became difficult was the point of exit. We had just different needs both financially and lifestyle wise and thoughts about where we were going.

When we got to that point of exit where I realized that this is no longer the path for me and instead of just stepping away and allowing him to control, I wanted fully out right? That was incredibly difficult. To his credit and to the credit of our relationship, we made it through, are still friends, there’s a lot there but there were incredible number of difficult conversations along the way because his need and desire is to have a business and to be in this one business for as long as he could foresee.

My need and desire was I’ve learned everything I can from here, I love the business but my meaning and purpose is elsewhere and I need to get to that place. Kind of coming to this conversations like UJ said, earlier in the process to say not only what our values and make sure that those are aligned, what does our life look like as far as we can foretell now and how do this things align so that those conversations don’t happen at a critical point.

They happen well before you get to a critical point. Hugely important.

[0:22:00.9] UR: That’s a really good point. Something that Chris mentioned that I didn’t mention was, I’m constantly asking like what is the ideal — in an ideal world with no constraints, what is our day to day involvement in the business, what’s important to me, what’s important to him?

Because once you can dial that in and we’re really focused on what we want? It’s amazing, there’s a really great book called Principles where he talks about this, as long as you know what you want and you know what other people want, you can arrange the business system in whatever way you need in order to get the output that you want.

Of course that’s going to take work and time and effort but you know it’s going to work out because it’s aligned with the fundamental drivers of your lives. That’s a really important point, even if you’re building a solo business is dialing in really keenly to what you want, a lot of people get what they want and realize, shit, that’s not really what I wanted.

That’s terrifying. It’s terrifying because you could lose years of your life to something that you think you’re getting and then you get it and you're like ouch. So I’ve kind of used that fear in a certain way, it’s a test, okay, do I really want this or am I just bullshitting myself because I don’t know who it was, there’s a really great — I think it’s Richard Fineman but I can be wrong.

Says, it’s important not to fool yourself and you are the most important person to fool. I like to try not to fool myself as much as possible.

[0:23:32.6] RN: Kind of really ties in to what Chris is doing right now in terms of taking entrepreneurs and equipping them, taking them from a place where they’re focused on kind of the financial success aspect and then moving them directly for that fulfillment to actually being fulfilled with what they want in life.

Chris, I’d love you to talk a bit about that, I know we’ve talked about it in the past.

[0:23:51.5] CP: Yeah, it ties directly into this conversation right? As UJ says, the more you know about what it is that drives you, what it is that is your path, what are your needs and desires, not just mentally but what’s driving you to deeper level?

The more you can share that with somebody else, in the context of a partnership, you can be very clear about, here are the things that drive me, here are the things that I need and want out of my life. Here are my fears as well.

Like imagine being able to step into any relationship? Romantic, friendship or business and say, here are my triggers, here are my fears and this is how the areas in life that when they happen, I may not be my best self. I can give people forewarning on that.

I think that having that core knowledge of yourself is critical and then when you start to look at partnerships, having those conversations early on to not only share this, the directions but I call it like laying out the business baggage you know?

This is what has gone poorly for me in past relationships, business and otherwise, this is what’s gone really well and laying them out so that you not only have opened up and shared more of yourself, allowing the other person to do the same but you have also then set a groundwork to say any future conversation can be this open, can be this vulnerable which makes it so much easier to step into difficult conversations and that’s the business that I’m starting now. Aside from my own personal brand and story that is a solo effort everything else I’m doing is a partnership effort because the scale that I want to affect the world and I think that it’s possible for us together to affect the world requires those partnerships.

And like UJ said, they’re incredibly complimentary skill sets to help to make that happen, right? But it began with these conversations. These conversations of what is my perfect day which is an exercise I learned from Jayson Gaignard, what are my core values and getting deeply into there which I learned from James Wallace, what are the things that have gone right or wrong in my relationships before and how can we avoid that which is something that I’ve just learned from experience and pulling that all together into the basis of any relationship and getting it out of the way immediately.

[0:25:56.1] RN: Are partnerships and scale kind of proportionate? If you want to change the world, can you do that on you own as a solo entrepreneur and build a team around, build a team underneath your leadership team, etcetera or is a partnership necessary?

[0:26:10.3] CP: I believe it depends on what your focus is. If your focus is pure inspiration to share a story with the world, I think that you can do that alone. Well a single person story can affect the world and inspire the world. What’s important to me though is I love both the combination of form and function. So not only this beautiful form of inspiration but a function of execution to making it happen and for that, to be done effectively and at scale, I truly believe that partnerships are required.

So I embrace them to say I want to share a beautiful story with the world and I want it to be actually executed upon for it to affect and for other people to take action including myself and I can’t see a way for a single person to embody all of that well. Except for Jayson Gaignard to my left who actually has…

[0:26:52.7] JG: You mean 100% profits in his business and he has no partners.

[0:26:57.2] UR: And he’s scaling the world.

[0:26:59.3] CP: But let’s be fair, so you have zero partnerships in any business that you have going on? Zero partnerships.

[0:27:05.1] JG: If I get divorce I owe money.

[0:27:06.9] CP: Yeah. No, no, no so what you are saying is the man who is basing his reputation on networks and networking believes that he can do it all alone?

[0:27:19.7] RN: In case you couldn’t hear Jayson, on the way back on this trip from kayaking, we’ll have a headset on Jayson so he can get his two cents in because he’s got a lot of stuff to say apparently without a headset on. When you put the headset on he shuts up, who knows?

[0:27:38.7] CP: But there is a difference between control of company and partnerships because you can look at partnerships could be affiliates. They could be advocates of yours who help to take you and message forward who have no financial stake in your company. I look at the term partnership fairly broadly and so you’ve got to look at what really works best for you. In my personal brand I have zero partners that affect control.

I want that to be completely under my control, everything else for me very open to partnerships and I didn’t expect that as I walked away from the last business, I have told myself I will never have a partner again not because my partner was bad but because those conversations at the end were so difficult that I didn’t want to go through that again.

[0:28:15.5] RN: I’m right there with you, that’s where I’m at right now. So maybe that will evolve. I’m sure it will but you know?

[0:28:22.0] UR: I think statistically you will see a lot more large businesses as partnerships and you’ll also see — Well personal brands obviously as Chris mentioned, a personal brand can really make a huge difference in the world. You look at Daniel Pink, you look at Malcolm Gladwell, that kind of thing but beyond that if you’re actually looking at a business of sorts, a partnership is a pretty — It’s basically a lot, lot more common than solo and even if it is solo, it’s totally doable and very possible. It’s just harder.

[0:28:51.9] RN: You’ve got to surround yourself with the support faster.

[0:28:54.1] UR: There’s a really great African proverb, I also learned from Jayson.

[0:28:57.2] RN: Jayson is just a knowledge bomb.

[0:28:58.8] UR: He’s just dropping shit from all over the place.

[0:29:01.6] RN: He’s raising the roof now too. I don’t know that people still did that.

[0:29:05.9] UR: Which is, if you want to go fast go alone.

[0:29:09.0] RN: You want to say that again.

[0:29:09.5] UR: If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.

[0:29:14.3] RN: I like that.

[0:29:15.4] UR: I think as true as forward geographical distances as for business durability.

[0:29:23.1] RN: All right, we have arrived to our kayaking and snorkeling adventure. Just to close this session out, UJ what does failure mean to you?

[0:29:31.8] UR: Failure is data.

[0:29:34.0] RN: I like it.

[0:29:35.2] UR: Failure is data and sometimes it’s hard to get to the emotional mental data that tells you what is actually going on. That’s just the work that you need to do to get better. Everything in life is data that tells you whether you are moving towards what you want or away from what you want. Success is data. It’s just this information telling you, “Okay this is what’s going on” and then as humans we make a story around that and that’s something we can’t help and that’s something that we can influence. So failure is the beast that you’ve got to wrestle.

[0:30:06.0] RN: I love it. Chris any parting thoughts man?

[0:30:09.1] CP: I appreciate you taking the chance of doing a podcast in a very different way, right? Again, this is what it’s all about leaning into something that is different, learning from it, figuring out what works amazingly well, what doesn’t and improving. So you’ve embodied this process.

[0:30:24.0] RN: Thanks man, I really appreciate that.

[0:30:25.6] JG: Well we’ve got another 30 minutes.

[0:30:28.1] RN: Jayson just said that we have another 30 minutes, what?

[0:30:32.0] CP: Are you guys serious?

[0:30:33.2] JG: Dude, we have to drive up the current, what are we going to do?

[0:30:37.1] RN: Oh so we’ve got to drive up river or not up river.

[0:30:39.5] CP: It’s hilarious, oh my God guys. At least it is working out for the podcast.

[0:30:45.4] RN: Yeah, I guess.

[0:30:47.4] CP: Rob was like, “I was done with this experiment, thank you very much”

[0:30:51.1] RN: That was my close.

[0:30:53.9] CP: The cool part is you can edit it up.

[0:30:55.4] JG: Yeah, now this is the Jayson Gainard podcast.

[0:30:57.9] CP: Hey you want me to put in Jayson?

[0:31:00.4] RN: Yeah, we don’t edit anything. Yeah Jayson get on the horn.

[0:31:03.0] CP: Jayson, come on man. It doesn’t matter.

[0:31:07.5] RN: Jayson this is an experiment. He’s being shy.

[0:31:09.2] CP: Yeah, he’s being shy.

[0:31:10.2] RN: That’s so cute. Nobody could hear you though, no.

[0:31:15.0] CP: Not much unfortunately, no.

[0:31:16.8] JG: Damn, I was dropping good jokes.

[0:31:18.4] CP: I know.

[0:31:18.8] RN: That’s why you’d have to have your headset on.

[0:31:20.4] CP: Jayson is now doing a 20 point turn, he just turned around. Seriously would you like to try? Yeah, you guys should switch places. You want me to drive? So Chris drives and Jayson gets in. Oh yeah that would be awesome.

[0:31:33.0] RN: All right so we’re going to do a little switcheroo. Get Jayson Gainard on the hot seat.

[0:31:38.3] CP: Just hold this back there somewhere.

[0:31:40.4] RN: Go, go, go all right now for the real knowledge bombs. Jayson Gainard is on the line. All right so Chris Plough is driving, Jayson Gainard is in the hot seat.

[0:31:53.1] JG: Chris do you know where you’re going?

[0:31:54.0] UR: He is just following him.

[0:31:55.8] JG: Oh perfect.

[0:31:56.1] RN: They didn’t tell us that was the plan?

[0:31:59.7] JG: Well no, I’ve never been to Current before so for context to those who are listening, Current, Bahamas, Current is a part of Eleuthera. So I’ve never been there before so I am actually glad we’re here and we are going together so. Was it 360 photo?

[0:32:14.0] RN: Chris Plough is taking 360 photos.

[0:32:16.6] JG: It doesn’t make sense. I’ve got to see what it looks like when it’s all said and done.

[0:32:19.5] RN: It doesn’t makes sense.

[0:32:19.8] JG: All right everyone, ask me questions and I will grant you some knowledge bombs.

[0:32:25.2] RN: We’ll you’ve heard some of this conversation so what’s your take on failure?

[0:32:31.6] JG: I actually zones out.

[0:32:32.5] RN: Partnerships.

[0:32:33.2] JG: Incredibly boring.

[0:32:34.2] RN: Life. Incredibly boring, no what’s your take on partnerships? I know you have a lot to say when you didn’t have the headset on.

[0:32:43.3] JG: I always have a lot to say when I am not in the limelight.

[0:32:47.9] UR: When he is in the limelight, he just shuts up. Look at him.

[0:32:50.3] JG: Exactly and I’m like, “Bask in my awesomeness!”

[0:32:51.5] UR: He’s been silent for five seconds ago.

[0:32:52.9] RN: Yeah, I know. Now he’s stuck.

[0:32:54.5] UR: He can’t think.

[0:32:55.2] JG: So I know I have never partnered with UJ that is for sure.

[0:32:56.6] UR: You got to take the headset away from him.

[0:33:00.2] JG: Okay so I guess here, let me break it down for you. I’ve had two or three partnerships. So we’ll talk about Kolbe and Quick Start and probably I think I was like a nine, I’m certain I’m 11 out of 10 when it comes to quick start. I love starting things quickly and I feel like talking to a partner about things just slows me down. So I’ve two, I have like three partnerships, but really two I guess somewhat legitimate partnerships on some level.

They are both very short term and they both failed really quickly which I am very grateful for but at the same time there is a saying that the common feature of all your dissatisfying relationships is you. So to me, the common feature of all my failed partnerships on some level even though I only had two is me. So I definitely take responsibility and potentially being part of the problem in those partnerships.

[0:33:52.3] UR: What do you think was the problem?

[0:33:54.0] JG: Well, one I went into them way too quick. I mean way, way too quick.

[0:33:58.2] UR: Like married in Vegas kind of situation?

[0:33:59.5] JG: And this happened early on in my career so I would definitely approach them way more methodically now like I know now, one of my rules and this may or may not be good, but one of my rules is that I would never get into a partnership that could make me bankrupt on some level meaning that I like cutting ties with things that take a lot of — if things don’t go well I want to be able to cut ties and walk away. So if I’m in a partnership I wouldn’t want to be in a partnership that’s the business is my whole livelihood or I’m a 100% invested in it.

I would do partnerships that are smaller things and that if the partnership doesn’t work out or if we have a disagreement it’s easy for me to walk away and just continue to move on. So that’s one thing but to what UJ said, again I move very quickly with businesses and ideas and I like testing things and trying things and I haven’t had like a — the one thing well UJ again, he’s very methodical, he just harps on the importance of vision and getting his business partner on board with the vision.

And I totally understand how that alignment would ease things significantly but that’s never been my DNA historically.

[0:35:09.1] UR: Yeah, my sense is that you don’t have patience for that kind of stuff.

[0:35:11.7] JG: No, I’m long term thinking in a certain sense but very short term thinking as well as far as I want to try things and see directions and I don’t want to be too married to long term vision because actually as Phil McKernan says who’s somebody on this trip with us, too often times we’re busy chasing opportunities that we miss out on the possibilities and I’ve learned that to be true. Like Cameron Herold is a great friend of ours, he has his Vivid Vision thing.

Where you have to get clear on your vision for the next three years and three years ago, I never thought I’d be where I am today by any stretch. I could not imagine where I am so we were talking about this offline like the surrender experiment and that kind of stuff and I feel like it’s somewhat in alignment with that where it’s just so hard to I guess predict on some level where you want to go in the next three years. In today’s day and age especially because there’s opportunities are abundant.

Technology is moving so quickly and those kind of things but I do see the value in it but I probably don’t put as much value as other people on vision and I’m more I guess go with the flow to some extent. Does that make sense?

[0:36:14.8] RN: Yeah totally because even with Mastermind Talks you‘re not planning three-five years out. You’re just taking it year by year right?

[0:36:22.8] JG: Yeah, we take them year by year. The evolution of the event and that’s the one thing, if we were married to a vision, Mastermind Talks is only three years old. The first of them was 2013 and that was May 2013, we’re March 2017. So it hasn’t been all that long ago and then actually when we actually we started out, we wanted to be almost like the Ted Talks of entrepreneurs and we’d have these speakers, these world class speakers compete for the best talk as voted by the audience.

That was our model and if I were to do a Vivid Vision based on that three years ago, maybe we will be. I feel sometimes vision could put blinders on you but instead, I am very good at testing out a bunch of things and being very — every once in a while we have lucky breaks. I’m very good at taking feedback, processing feedback, acting upon feedback and figuring out when I have lucky breaks and how to leverage those.

[0:37:11.0] UR: I can attest to that.

[0:37:12.9] JG: So yeah that’s why I’m not a huge fan of vision on some level. One thing I am on the vision front I will say is to what Chris said is getting clear on your perfect day. To me that’s been an incredibly impactful exercise that I try to hone every once in a while and I’ve got to do it again shortly but the perfect day is basically, I guess the premise of it is business at its core is to make money and money at its core you could say is designed to perpetuate experiences in our day to day lives.

Like what your life to look like is the next natural question. So when you are clear on that, you can start building everything else around it including your business and the vision of your business around that because when you’re clear on your perfect day for me is you can start using that as filter for all opportunities that come your way and you can start asking yourself is this taking you closer to your perfect day or is it taking you further away.

It drives a clear line in the sand and that doesn’t change as much as the things around you like businesses and business models and people you serve and those kind of things.

[0:38:08.6] RN: What is your perfect day?

[0:38:09.5] JG: I’m actually really close to it now surprisingly. Well I mean surprisingly that was kind of part of the whole exercise but the perfect day I guess the one thing I screwed up initially was I designed the perfect day and I was like, “Well I am not going to live that perfect day every day” sometimes I want to do something different on Tuesday or all of those kinds of things. I guess the newest iteration which I’m actually hoping, hopefully UJ and I could do it when we do our little escape in April.

Where we go away for a couple of days is to design a perfect day but also almost like I am in conversation with myself three years from now and it’s more like this is what my perfect day looks like but in January I’m going on vacation and on Saturdays I do Jujitsu and those kinds of things because I didn’t have that initially but really at its core, it really revolves around relationships. It revolves around certain kind of healthy habits like working out and those kinds of things.

It revolves around having space and simplicity of my life. It also revolves around where I live and not being — if there is a specific type of place I want to live and oddly enough we live there pretty much now. There is a few changes I would make but I am so close. Like the power of the perfect day to me, I’m not this huge secret guy or anything but I think setting these things unconsciously and just letting go of them they really — you start to make this small micro decisions that lead you in that direction.

A great example is one of the things of my perfect day which I originally wrote in 2012 was to have my own — I have this picture of this house but I had this bio hacking barn in the backyard where I can do like ice baths and have my own space basically. I have a wife and a five year old daughter now.

[0:39:46.9] UR: I still remember the exact time you told me about the bio hacking barn. It was at Spoke Club, it was raining then and you were talking to me about it and I’m like, “Dude this sounds exciting”.

[0:39:57.2] JG: Yeah, so the vision was to have…

[0:39:59.3] UR: That’s three years ago about.

[0:40:00.7] JG: Yeah, the vision was to have a house and then a barn where I could work out off and just have my own space and then about a year and a half — and then I just wrote it down in my perfect day and I put it away and then probably about a year and a half later, I had a co-working space and they were trying to jack up my rent and charge me for parking which was going to take me over four to $500 on what I was paying before.

I am not going to pay for this stupid co-working space, I can get a loft. So I ended up getting a loft to work out off and after the first week I’m like, “This is actually — I don’t have my own bio hacking barn but I have my own space where I can cook my own meals. I can do ice baths daily and I have those kinds of things. It was 90% of my perfect day in that sense but it’s because I have to be clear on it initially. So that’s why I fundamentally believe in the power of the exercise and I’ve had a lot of friends especially in transition.

And that’s the one thing that breaks my heart, it’s friends who are in transition and are lost, and don’t know what to do next and all that kind of stuff so it was a really impactful exercise for me and there’s some different kind of uses and resources that you will find online. I haven’t found any of that all that great but I have a structured list of questions that I ask myself and how to do the exercise. So I’ll be working on that hopefully soon.

[0:41:17.4] RN: Did you go through that when you were in transition? Is that why you empathize so much with guys that are kind of lost and couldn’t figure out their way?

[0:41:23.5] JG: Oh yeah, thankfully I was only lost for a short period of time. Actually that’s a lie on some level. Even though I was still in the business at one point in time, the minute I unconsciously decided to detach I was lost. So even though I still had money coming in, I still had a team and I wasn’t officially free, I was still at that point done.

[0:41:43.9] CP: Seating at your point in the seat?

[0:41:45.3] JG: Yeah, exactly and then thankfully once I got out of that business, I stumbled into Mastermind Talks rather quickly so that worked out. So all of these came from partnerships and this conversation. So I steered it in the wrong direction so feel free to take the reins again.

[0:42:02.2] RN: That’s perfect.

[0:42:02.2] JG: See, now you know why I can’t deal with partnerships, I don’t like rules or like barriers. Somebody says I’ll talk about this, I’m like, we’ll talk about that for a…

[0:42:10.2] RN: I’ll talk about whatever I want to talk about.

[0:42:11.7] JG: Let’s go in my direction.

[0:42:13.9] UR: Actually it’s interesting what Jayson said because my change from year to year because of technology or whatever but what really drives the vision is values right? What really drives the perfect day is the values. Having a really strong value fit cannot be overstated in any kind of partnership. You have marriage, or business partnership, or whatever.

Even with the employees that especially like along kind of core team that you’re looking to build. That kind of fit, it’s so important to have that. Because if you do, then everything seems like magic and if it don’t and everything seems like hitting your head against the wall. and trying to get a different result.

[0:42:53.1] RN: What’s been the biggest struggle for you and building a team? Have you had people not buy into the vision necessarily and that’s costing it?

[0:43:00.4] UR: I think finding the people and the cool thing about business is like the thing I really love about business is there’s so much to fucking learn and you can’t even kid yourself that you’re half decent. You can’t. Because there’s so many people doing it way better than you are in so many different industries that it’s — what’s going on?

[0:43:23.2] RN: We got some pictures taken.

[0:43:28.1] UR: Just ruin my train of thought man.

[0:43:30.2] RN: Get a selfie…

[0:43:31.8] UR: I can’t believe this.

[0:43:33.7] RN: Keep up.

[0:43:34.6] UR: The point I’m trying to make is that finding great people is actually — my currently my biggest challenge is finding the right people to really kind of move the company to the next level. I think we’d mentioned about, I talked about this before, doing things solo will only get you so far and building a great team is a learning curve for me and if I were to drop a word, it feel excruciating but hey, it’s fine.

[0:43:59.1] RN: Specifically is it just the hiring process, is it knowing what to look for?

[0:44:04.3] UR: It’s just like dating but it’s a lot more intense because you’re looking for a specific kind of fit and you know that this fit is going to make a huge difference in the organization and you have a pretty sharp kind of get to know each other’s situation. It takes a while, sometimes you know early that it’s not something that you want to do and something that you don’t want to have on the table.

Sometimes it takes a little later but it’s totally fine, it’s excruciating and that to me the way it should be because if you care about something then…

[0:44:35.8] RN: Jason, I don’t know if you’re like in this respect but you always hear, hire slow, fire fast. But I just think hiring slow to us, yeah, you want to find the right fit but you also want to find somebody now. It’s like really — for me, that’s always, it’s a tough challenge because I’m very impatient, I’m probably the most impatient person I know and it’s really tough for me to slow down and do all of the little things, the personality tests, the Kolbe.

All the stuff that you need to do. It’s been a challenge for me to find the patience to really hire slow.

[0:45:08.3] JG: That’s why I would like hire a UJ in a heartbeat because he gets like such a chubby over hiring people and digging into their personalities and like doing hours upon hours of interviews and my eyes will just gloss over and I’m like, I don’t know, do I like you? Would I take you out for dinner? If so, then you’re probably hired.

My philosophy historically is hire fast and fire slow and it doesn’t work at all. God knows how many people I’ve kept on payroll that I should’ve let go. The hundreds of thousands of dollars I’d have in my bank account now. I’m definitely not, I’m a model entrepreneur as far as what not to do so when it comes to hiring and I even like — when UJ gets people, he gets so — When he hires people, he gets so excited, that’s what he was like built to do. Just not my DNA, again, back to the partnerships again, I’m not totally against it, I probably wouldn’t have a partnership in Mastermind Talks since I cared too deeply about it.

[0:46:10.8] UR: That makes sense.

[0:46:11.3] JG: Also the one thing, I definitely have some control issues and also control in like if something goes wrong, I want to take full responsibility and I don’t want to ever have to be it’s my partner’s fault. Yeah, I mean, I’m totally fine, I have my Mastermind Talks and those kind of things but I definitely will be open to partnerships outside of that.

I think that puts me in a better headspace as well when it comes to looking up partnerships and possible opportunities but I’d find, if I had somebody like UJ, it would be great because UJ’s also matters as well. UJ really operates the business. His business with Alex, he does like the bulk of the work.

Alex is great and he’s involved but that, similar to Alex, that’s not his nest egg, he has Luxy Hair as other brand and stuff like that which is his day to day. I don’t know, the one thing and I know Chris doesn’t have a headset, I think the dynamic definitely changes as well when both partners, it’s 100% of their focus, like the communication chain link, I could just see it could be much more.

If I wasn’t fully committed to a business and somebody wanted to take it in a different direction or try different things, I’d be much more open to it as supposed to like if it’s my baby. Yeah, I’d totally be open to partnerships and on some level and finding somebody like a UJ who is complementary.

Because now I do know my strengths and weaknesses. Back then I didn’t and I mean, once you have that awareness, that definitely changes a lot of things.

[0:47:33.7] RN: One thing I ran into with my last partnership is, I felt it really it was my own fault, I had nothing to do with my partner but I thought I was limiting my growth because I’d find myself relying on him for a lot of things that I could easily make the decision for but I would find myself just confirming my own beliefs with him.

I’d make a decision and be like, don’t you agree? Or don’t you think so? I would find myself really kind of capping myself in terms of decision making ability and…

[0:48:04.5] JG: I had that with a mentor, one of my most recent mentor, I had a good very solid mentor for about two years and then I realized like I’d take everything he says, I was like, I make decision like I barely make decisions for myself anymore. I was always looking for him to give me confirmation so I had to kind of cut that mentorship short because of that, because I’m like, I’m losing my own voice in my own business and that’s…

[0:48:27.4] RN: I think props because that’s not always very easy to recognize either. To have enough awareness to realize that I’m relying on somebody else too much and not my own thoughts and vision and goals.

[0:48:38.4] UR: I think like a fundamental thing, when it comes to relationships, partnerships, even teams is respect. In respect not just for where the other person’s coming from but also their skill set. Even in teams, sometimes someone come to me and they want to run a decision by me and they’re like, what do you think we should do? I’m like, what do you think we should do?

That’s your job right? Walk me through your decision making process and I’ll tell you if I see any holes in it. I want to respect them for their side of their expertise. I want to have lots of people on me, I respect a ton and some really good research that is done in a relationship by a man named John Gottman, the guy who essentially predicts divorce for like 90 plus percent accuracy, he was mentioned in Malcolm Gadwell’s Blink, the book.

And he mentions that as one of the top returning for long term relationships is respect. How much you respect this person and how well does again your skill sets complement each other, I have to harp on a point but it’s really important if you have the same skill sets.

[0:49:40.7] RN: That’s huge.

[0:49:41.6] JG: I actually have a knowledge bomb if you’re ready for it.

[0:49:44.6] RN: Drum roll please.

[0:49:45.8] JG: It’s not my knowledge bomb but this is actually given to me by Shaw Wiseman, she actually said it at my Talk Tier One that to never get into a partnership with somebody you want to have over to your house for the weekend and probably two, three years ago I almost got into a partnership with somebody who on the surface level, it sound like it would be great and we knew each other for a little bit.

All the stars were aligned. Oddly enough, we came to the Bahamas and we were here for three or four days together and at the end, we stayed in the same villa or whatever. After like 36 hours, I wanted to kill him, absolutely kill him. And then everything just went downhill from there and I’m like…

[0:50:19.7] UR: Jason’s a very nonviolent guy.

[0:50:22.5] JG: That was such a simple kind of test that as a person, I couldn’t stand him. That ties into respect on some level. I don’t think I’ve ever respected my past partners or I also put him on pedestals, I didn’t know them well enough that I put them in pedestals and then you start to see the chinks in their armor over long term, you’re like, what the hell did I do partnering with this guy because I thought he was better at this.

I thought he was this person, he’s not or those kind of things.

[0:50:51.1] RN: Is that pedestal you put them on or like, put themselves on?

[0:50:54.5] JG: I put them on that pedestal. They didn’t ask to get put on that pedestal but I put them on that pedestal just thinking that they were smarter than they were or better than they were and had more knowledge about the industry than they did.

[0:51:03.2] CP: People can put themselves on a pedestal by embellishing accomplishments and stuff like that but it was more of something you just put them there.

[0:51:10.5] JG: Yeah, I think it’s your decision if you follow through with it right? There’s a lot of stay close sales man out there and then you don’t have to put them on a pedestal, I think I was very young and naïve at my initial partnerships.

It’s funny when you first meet somebody you’re like oh my God, this person’s amazing, so smart and you kind of overestimate their value and maybe under estimate yours so you think it’s a great deal to partner with them and then over time, you get to know them better and you’re like, if you rush into a partnership, yeah, they’re easy to get in to and hard to get out of.

That’s very similar to the hiring process but obviously needs to be taken with more care because your whole livelihood could be wiped out because of it. You know, one thing UJ’s phenomenal at is communication and having car conversations like he will not shy away, getting back to the whole robotic thing and UJ, he will not shy away from — I don’t know if he…

[0:52:02.3]UJ: How is that anything to do with the robotic?

[0:52:03.5] JG: Because I don’t think you have empathy to how other people feel. I’m like maybe overly empathetic, I don’t want to hurt this person’s feelings and UJ’s like he doesn’t see it. What is this guy doing?

[0:52:16.0] RN: He almost went off the road on the right hand side.

[0:52:18.9] JG: Sorry, for context, we’re following this guy with a bunch of kayaks and he’s drunk. Yeah, anyways. UJ’s not like, he doesn’t shy away from having difficult conversations and for somebody like me, for somebody like UJ, he will always bring them up and he will always have them tabled for the next conversation, all that kind of stuff.

If you have two people like me in a partnership, good luck, we’ll both like worry about the other person’s feelings.

[0:52:39.5] RN: That was like my last partnership, yeah.

[0:52:41.1] JG: One of the best things and then I can point to marriage because this is very similar, is the importance of having a third party, my wife and I have a therapist and not because we necessarily needed it but I will always want to get a therapist like early on, even when we were dating because I’m like just like, I’ll say, all the big athletes have coaches as well right?

That has been an absolute game changer so I know if I had — I’d have to create these trip wires for conversations that if I was in a partnership of sorts…

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:53:13.2] RN: Obviously, apologies for that abrupt ending but just to make it simple, I’ll link to everyone’s social media on the show notes page and the best ways to get in touch with each person and of course, all the links and resources we discussed can be found at the page created especially for this episode. That’s going to be at failon.com/012.

Next episode, I’m going to be sitting down with Andy Drish in Boarder Colorado. Andy is the cofounder of The Foundation and they help aspiring entrepreneurs create software businesses without any idea or investing any money.

He’s an amazing dude, tons of great insight, make sure to listen in. As I continue to build out this project for the simple goal of getting people to once and for all, the side they’re going to fail their way to creating an inspired life.

If you could do one thing to support the cause, I’d be more grateful when you click the subscribe button and leave a rating and quick review, this allows the podcast to simply to be visible to more people. To rate and review the podcast, just visit failon.com/itunes, failon.com/stitcher.

[OUTRO]

[0:54:23.1] ANNOUNCER: That’s all for this episode of The Fail On Podcast. For more resources, show notes and action items to help you find success in your failures, sign up for our mailing list at failon.com.

For more actionable inspiration, we’ll catch you next time right here on The Fail On Podcast.

[END]

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