Trim The Fat, Elevate Your Network And Eliminate Startup Risk

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Andy Drish is an entrepreneur, a speaker and co-founder of The Foundation. He helps people create the mindset and skills needed to create software businesses without upfront risk and absolutely no business idea. His company, The Foundation, has been absolutely crushing it over the last five years. They have success stories from students that have gone on to create eight figure businesses.

In today’s episode we will be discussing the three different ways to elevate your network. Andy shares how to completely eliminate risk when starting a new business. He also walks us through how he first made money in entrepreneurship and why the only thing that matters when you start is simply getting sales.


Key Points From This Episode:

  • Andy tells us where his passion for business came from and how he started out.
  • Find out how Andy started his business in Etsy and how it became successful.
  • Learn how helping an influential person who has experience in business can help you.
  • Hear about Andy’s biggest struggle in terms of his journey of getting to where he is now.
  • Understand why it is important to know exactly what you want and not deviating from it.
  • Learn why you have to reach out to people that have done what you want to do.
  • Understand what is meant by elevating your network.
  • Find out how to surround yourself by people that are doing better than you.
  • Hear how Andy defines failure.
  • Learn more about The Foundation, what it is, how it makes money, and its future plans.
  • Understand why emotions play such a big role in entrepreneurship and how to deal with it.
  • Discover ways to assess risk in terms of whether to pursue ventures or projects.
  • Andy tells us about the last time he got outside of his comfort zone and what he was doing.
  • Find out about one directive or step to helping you with a business idea.
  • Hear who has had a profound impact on Andy’s life.
  • Andy shares on some exciting new ventures.
  • Find out about the different two realms for entrepreneurs when diving into a business.
  • And much more!








Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:

Andy Drish —

Andy on Twitter —

Andy Drish Email —

The Foundation —

Chiat Day —

Etsy —

Clay Collins —

Tim Ferris —

Jason Fried —

David Hauser —

Phil McKernan —

Jayson Gaignard —

Adam Caroll —

Chandler Bolt —

Tesla —

Cathryn and Allen, The Self Journal —

Carl Mattiola —

Nicholas Kusmich —

The book, Nature in the Human Soul

Transcription Below:

Read Full Transcript


“AD: Here’s the first thing I would do is I would make a list of everybody you know who has had some sort of success in business or who is running a business or like who is an entrepreneur at some level. I would make a list of all of them and I would shoot them an email and I would have the email say something like this:

“Hey, I really want to get into business, I know you’ve been doing it for a while, I want to get into business by helping people who have painful problems. I want to solve something for you so I’m wondering, can we talk for 30 minutes and I can just ask you questions about your business, about what’s working for you and what isn’t and see if there’s anything that I can help with?”


[0:00:35.1] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Fail on Podcast where we explore the hardships and obstacles today’s industry leaders face on their journey to the top of their fields, through careful insight and thoughtful conversation. By embracing failure, we’ll show you how to build momentum without being consumed by the result.

Now please welcome your host, Rob Nunnery.


[0:01:02.1] RN: Hey there and welcome to the show that believes you are destined for more and that failing your way to an inspired life is the only way to get there. Today, we are sitting down with Andy Drish, he is an entrepreneur, a speaker and cofounder of The Foundation and he helps people create the mindset and skills needed to equip new entrepreneurs with the tools to create software businesses without upfront risk and absolutely no business idea.

His company The Foundation has been absolutely crushing it over the last five years, creating success stories and testimonials from students that have gone on to create eight figure businesses, that’s a big business.

We’ll be discussing the three different ways to elevate your network, how to completely eliminate risk when starting a new business and Andy walks us through how he first made money in entrepreneurship and why the only thing that matters when you start is simply getting sales.

But first, if you’d like to stay up to date on all fail on podcast interviews and key takeaways from each guest, simply go to and sign up for our newsletter at the bottom of the page. That’s


[0:02:04.3] RN: today I’m joined by Andy Drish, cofounder of The Foundation, Andy, welcome to the Fail on Podcast.

[0:02:09.4] AD: Dude, thanks man, stoked to be here, we’re sitting in a hotel lobby right now.

[0:02:14.9] RN: It’s not even a lobby, on the second floor of like, I wouldn't even consider this a lobby.

[0:02:18.5] AD: Yeah, totally.

[0:02:19.4] RN: A hallway in a hotel, yeah. Anyways, thanks, this is actually as I was telling you earlier it’s my wife and I’s first time in Boulder and I’m a mountain guy so I’m in heaven right now, I’m loving it.

[0:02:30.0] AD: It’s beautiful here.

[0:02:31.7] RN: Just to jump into it man, obviously I want to dig in to your current ventures and The Foundation in a bit but I always like to start with is going back to the first time that you remember that somebody actually gave you money in exchange for something that you created.

Whether it be a proctor service?

[0:02:46.5] AD: Yeah, I think there’s a couple of moments that really matter in an entrepreneur’s life and there’s a handful of things from when I was a kid you know? I started mowing lawns, I mowed my grandma’s lawn a lot you know? $10 a week or something.

[0:02:57.4] RN: Iowa kid.

[0:02:58.4] AD: Iowa kid yeah. Grew up in a farm.

[0:02:59.3] RN: I can imagine, it’s probably a big yard.

[0:03:01.5] AD: Yeah, you know it and we used to — my friend had a mowing business, we used to get up before school and trim cemeteries like with weed eaters, it was terrible, I hated it. I hated every aspect of it except hanging out with my friends like doing work with your friends is okay but — that was one of the first times I started — we de tasseled corn in Iowa which is where you get up at 4:30 in the morning and then drag through the cornfields in these machines and you have to pull tassels off of corn but all of that was like, you know, it’s pretty much like job, it’s not work. I just started working young. When I went to college, I started a bar in my dorm room and I sold fake ID’s for a little bit. I was smart enough to not make them good so that if we got in trouble, the cops would be like, “Are you kidding, what is this?”

That didn’t last very long. In college, I had a handful of these experiences but the moment that really mattered for me was when I was 22 years old. Graduated, I was working in Corporate America and one of the things I’d always want to do was get paid to speak, that was something that was really fascinating to me and when I was 22, I started doing all these presentations in Corporate America around what’s happening with social media, how it’s shifting landscape for corporations and companies.

The Iowa Association of something, really weird thing, heard about the presentations and they asked me to do it and they asked me how much I charge and I was like, $500 and they’re like okay, I got paid $500 to go talk for three hours and that was the moment where I was like holy shit.

[0:04:24.0] RN: It’s a pretty long talk, that three hours.

[0:04:25.0] AD: Yeah, it was a whole workshop.

[0:04:25.7] RN: You consistently through…

[0:04:27.4] AD: Workshop style, there’s talk and then we had exercises and stuff but at 22 years old, to get paid 500 bucks for three hours of my time doing something that I absolutely loved doing, that was the key. Because all of the stuff in the past was like, I enjoyed it from time to time but that was something that was really dialed with what I wanted.

[0:04:42.9] RN: That kind of changed our thought process? Okay, I can actually do this and make money and this could actually be something.

[0:04:48.5] AD: It was just like wow, you can — growing up in southeast Iowa, work was always hard, it was always construction, it was always manual labor, it was like pain in the ass and I was making like 10 bucks an hour to make $500 bucks for three hours doing something I loved was a complete game changer for me in terms of what’s possible in reality.

[0:05:08.8] RN: So what did that lead you to? Once you did that, were you like, man, I want to do these workshops every day.

[0:05:12.6] AD: Yeah. I was like holy shit, I can actually do this and I ended up starting a company where I did training for college students so I partnered with professional business fraternities and I would speak at their regional and national conferences teaching college kids how to land a job after college, how to do personal branding and how to start businesses and I would speak at their regional and national conferences and then the students would invite me back to their campuses and so I did a stint of that for a year, year and a half or something like that.

And then it became not so enjoyable, like every weekend, having to go, fly out, go somewhere and you know, I was making better money then, it was one to two grand for a talk, something like that.

[0:05:52.6] RN: What kind of drove you to always want to speak?

[0:05:55.8] AD: I don’t know.

[0:05:56.7] RN: So is this always a thing since you were like a child?

[0:05:59.3] AD: Yeah, it was fun.

[0:05:59.5] RN: Always wanted to be in front of people, that’s just kind of your personality, just want to be in front of people talking, explaining stuff?

[0:06:04.4] AD: Yeah, I really enjoyed it and there was something that in college, we taught a course on helping people with presentations because it was just something I think if you want to influence people, it’s a skill you have to have. Whether it’s one on one like just sitting here like this or whether it’s one on a thousand people in front of an audience like the more ability that you have to be to communicate in front of people, the more influence and impact you can have with people.

[0:06:28.7] RN: 100%. After you did that and going around the colleges and stuff, what was your next play after that?

[0:06:35.6] AD: Well, it’s so funny because I was doing multiple things at a time so I was still working full time in Corporate America doing this and so this was just like on weekends and stuff. Yeah, I would fly out from Wednesday afternoon, come back Sunday night.

[0:06:45.9] RN: What were you doing in corporate America? What was your nine to five job?

[0:06:48.6] AD: I was in a leadership rotation program. Fortune 500 company, big financial services and doing marketing, I was working in new media marketing technology pretty much similar to what I’m doing now.

[0:06:59.8] RN: Sure, did you actually enjoy that work or did you — or were you just a guy that hated the nine to five, hated having to report to somebody?

[0:07:05.9] AD: You know, I go back and forth, I had my up days but down days, I hated not having control of my life, I hated being surrounded by people who felt like they were dying inside but some of the work was really interesting, we got to work with Chiat Day who’s into ad agency who does all the campaigns for Pepsi, Apple, Visa, Gatorade and they flew out the top 30 marketing executives and company and me. Because I was like this young guy that understood social media.

I got some really amazing opportunities and got to learn some really cool stuff from the program that we’re in but overall, so not sure. Not what I wanted.

[0:07:41.6] RN: Yeah, just more the environment, less of the work.

[0:07:44.9] AD: Yeah, I like the creative aspect, I like doing stuff that’s new, you know, the thing that I hated the most, wearing Khaki pants. I hate getting dressed up like it’s little things like that that are just so draining. Yeah.

[0:08:02.0] RN: You wore khaki pants since?

[0:08:03.0] AD: No. My fiancée wants me to wear them and get pairs of khaki pants and I’m like no, never. I will not do that.

[0:08:09.6] RN: It’s a principle now right?

[0:08:11.9] AD: Jeans baby, yeah.

[0:08:14.8] RN: What did you go into after the college stint?

[0:08:17.2] AD: Yeah, we launched a business teaching people how to do marketing on Etsy. I partnered with one of the more influential guys on Etsy, this is the first business ever launched when we started doing like…

[0:08:27.0] RN: Online stuff.

[0:08:28.0] AD: Yeah. Eventually I got really into online marketing, direct response, learning copywriting because I was trying all this other stuff and it just wasn’t generating cash flow and I knew I had to solve cash flow if I wanted to leave my job right? If you’re listening to this, you know what it’s like, if you’re working 40 hours a week, you can’t just — no one’s going to come save you, no one’s going to give you money if you’re working full time in Corporate America and you want to start something on the side. You have to figure something out.

[0:08:53.1] RN: On that piece, people think about business ideas but surprisingly enough, sometimes the last thing to think about is what do they need to do to actually generate those dollars to come in.

[0:09:02.3] AD: Yeah.

[0:09:03.4] RN: Right? They think about the stuff that doesn’t matter. The logo, what’s my brand going to be?

[0:09:06.4] AD: Yes.

[0:09:07.8] RN: Where, dollars is all that matters, if you have an objective to like leave your job?

[0:09:10.8] AD: Yeah, if you want to leave your job, your whole focus is like how do I get to five grand a month as fast as possible. When you get there, then you can like think a little bit bigger and stuff right? Until then, nothing matters except cash flow.

I still approach businesses that way, I think if you’re at that point, it is such an incredible muscle to develop, your ability to be disciplined with what you pursue and what you don‘t pursue.

[0:09:35.5] RN: If you go back and you’re in the position like who we just spoke to right? That’s a nine to five job and wants to do something else, what do you do going back to your situation where you’re in it but you didn’t have this opportunities that were surrounded by you.

[0:09:50.0] AD: Yeah.

[0:09:50.6] RN: Or you're surrounded with at the time. How would you go about it now knowing everything that you know, what would be the quickest way to dollars for you in a nine to five job?

[0:09:57.4] AD: In a nine to five job.

[0:09:59.9] RN: you don’t have the copywriting skills yet, you don’t have any of the skills you have now developed but you have the skills that you had back then?

[0:10:06.6] AD: The skills that I had. Let me tell you how I did it back then and then we can kind of go from there to see what it might be now. Back then, Clay Collins who runs Lead Pages if you guys listen to the Lead Pages. He was doing information marketing stuff. He launched a product called Project Mojave. It was a hundred bucks.

I went down in corporate America, there’s a place where you can like — there’s a place where you could access your personal emails so 15,000 employees, you had four computers where you could access your personal email.

I went down there and I waited for 30 minutes before the product launched and I paid himm a hundred bucks and I was the first customer of this new product. Anyway, he taught me how to find niches online and I found Etsy and that was like the beginning, six weeks later, we launched a membership website and it was generating six grand a month in revenue.

[0:10:46.5] RN: What year is this?

[0:10:48.0] AD: 2009.

[0:10:49.7] RN: Etsy is super new at that point right?

[0:10:52.0] AD: Yeah, I looked in Google trends and I was looking for words and there was a word that was like spiking like crazy and it was Etsy and I was like, “What the hell is Etsy? I’ve never heard of this word,” and then I found that it was a marketplace and then I went in the forums and the market place and I said, “If Etsy were a popularity contest, who would win?”

I got all of this, like flaming, like people were pissed and some people were like, be nice to him, he’s just new to the community and — but everybody pointed to this one guy and I found this one guy who had influence in the space and I was like “Hey man, if you want to help, we can partner and I’ll do the marketing for you” and then that’s what we ended up doing, that’s when we launched the membership website.

[0:11:23.8] RN: That’s cool.

[0:11:24.5] AD: That was 2009.

[0:11:25.8] RN: Looking back, would you take kind of the same approach for somebody listening.

[0:11:29.6] AD: Yeah, if you’re listening right now, I would find an influential — it’s hard to say influential person, it doesn’t necessarily have to be like Tim Ferris is an influential person, it’s like, find somebody you know who has experience in business and who has been successful and hound them until they’ll let you help them.

Dude, I just want to help you, what can I help you with? What’s going to happen if you do this. If you find someone who has already been successful, they probably have an abundance of business ideas that you could be working on for them. You get results for them and if you get results for them, they’re going to want to share that with a whole bunch of other people. Figure out somebody who is influential, figure out what their pain points are.

Figure out what they’re struggling with, figure out how to help them with that, do that and then repeat that a couple of more times.

[0:12:08.8] RN: Without kind of having an expectation of I’m going to go do all this work for somebody and you got to come from a place where it’s purely value ad right?

[0:12:19.1] AD: Yeah.

[0:12:19.9] RN: It’s not like, I’m going to do this for you and you’re going to give me this. Right?

[0:12:23.2] AD: I love that you’re saying that.

[0:12:25.9] RN: There’s a big distinguish there where people go after people to seek mentorship, go after even guys like Tim Ferris I’m sure, I can only imagine his inbox. You have to do it from a place of like…

[0:12:36.2] AD: Service.

[0:12:36.9] RN: Yeah, Exactly.

[0:12:37.8] AD: You’re being in service to them, we’ve hired a bunch of people throughout the foundation and I love hiring young, passionate, talented people. Every single person who has worked under me for at least a year has went and started their own company afterwards and they’ve normally done it through contacts that I have, either through introductions that we’ve introduced them to or like that’s their next leap.

You learn a whole bunch of stuff, you generate value, you get cash flow and it’s just a natural progression. I think that’s the fastest way out if I were to start all over again.

[0:13:06.2] RN: Looking back, that was kind of your entry way into the online space. Along that journey, you obviously run The Foundation now or you cofounded The Foundation. What’s been the biggest struggle in terms of kind of your journey in the business side?

We’ll go into overall kind of biggest struggles and failures as on the personal side, business side but in this context, what’s been the hardest part about getting to where you are now?

[0:13:31.7] AD: Yeah. I interviewed 40 entrepreneurs in November and they were all bootstrapped, there were software entrepreneurs, Clay Collins, Jason Fried, David Hauser, like a bunch of really badass people. Afterwards, I analyzed everything, all the answers to figure out what are the top 10 principles for bootstrapping based off these 40 people.

The number one thing that came head and shoulders above everything else was one statement. When I saw, it made me realize why I felt I had been off for the past couple of years. The number one thing that I found it all bootstrapped entrepreneurs have in common that had been really successful is that they know exactly what they want and they never deviate from it.

[0:14:10.0] RN: What do you mean? Just in terms of like vision and goal? End goal with that I have or?

[0:14:14.4] AD: Knowing what you want your life to look like and prioritizing that ahead of everything else and I find that the entrepreneurs that do that, I have massive amounts of respect for it because they’re so disciplined at creating what it is that they want and I think one of the challenges I experienced with The Foundation is we took off pretty quickly and then we had all these ideas to do all these different things and we started doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that and explaining it and all of these different things and we lost sight of what truly matters for a while.

[0:14:41.0] RN: What was that that truly matter for you guys?

[0:14:43.1] AD: Serving people, making an impact and doing it in a way that I think we went down a rabbit hole of trying to build something bigger than we actually wanted to do. We got kind of high off of the trajectory of everything and we’re like, we’re going to build this massively world changing like thing.

[0:14:58.7] RN: Yeah, you start to see traction right? Things are going well, you’re profitable. I think the natural tendency is to scale right?

[0:15:04.3] AD: yeah, totally

[0:15:06.3] RN: This is working, we’ve got the formula.

[0:15:09.3] AD: Totally, and amplify like crazy.

[0:15:11.9] RN: Which is an interesting point because I think most people start off in business thinking about how to build this business, how to scale it without even considering the question that you just said is what do I want my life to look like?

[0:15:22.9] AD: Why do I want to scale it?

[0:15:23.9] RN: Exactly.

[0:15:24.3] AD: Totally.

[0:15:25.2] RN: It’s an interesting paradox because most people don’t look at that beforehand until they get too far down the rabbit hole, to where they like “Oh crap, I actually don’t want to build an empire and build a gigantic business with a hundred employees. I’m happy having 10 employees and I’m happy living the life that I do.”

[0:15:39.3] AD: Yeah. I think it’s really important because our culture is so easy to get sucked in to the more more more mentality and it happened to me like I got so sucked into it and I eventually found myself like I did. You know, a month and a half of being on the road, it was like five Masterminds and Team Retreat and thing to thing and I ended up getting really sick and I went to urgent care and I had like day three of being sick and having a temperature.

They checked my lungs for fluid and they had me take a deep breath in and I took a deep breath in and I passed out. I started vomiting on myself and like, woke up a few seconds later, however long it was and it was a moment where I was like, “What is actually happening” and when I sat into it and spent some time to reflect and stuff, I got really in touch with just like this inner sense of emptiness of like no matter how much we would achieve or do, I just felt fucking — I can’t…

[0:16:31.4] RN: No, you can swear.

[0:16:31.0] AD: I can swear. Fucking drained and empty and I was trying to achieve out of insecurity and out of all of this like wanting to prove something that I didn’t even know was happening. Going back to the question, it’s like knowing exactly what you want and not deviating from that as an entrepreneur I think is so important.

[0:16:50.2] RN: Yeah, I agree, I think sometimes it’s hard for people at the beginning, maybe it’s their first business, it’s hard to look past just because when you’re starting this, you just want to make money right? You just want to get out of your job, it’s hard to — I think a good way to do it is once you start getting some traction, before you consider scaling then consider the question of what do I actually want?

[0:17:13.6] AD: Totally. I think questions matter, like different stages, right? The stage that you’re in right now, if you’re just getting started, it’s like, you don’t give two shits about that piece, it’s like, you know exactly which one, here’s the deal. If you’re, you know what you want right now, if you want to quit your job, if you’re working in Corporate America, you know the goal is like five grand a month, 10 grand a month.

It gets dangerous when you achieve it, then when you achieve it, that’s when it’s like what else? What happens next? If you’re at that stage right now, you know what you want and I would just say stick to that and just stick to that with immense discipline.

[0:17:46.1] RN: I can relate because we talked a little bit about my former business with the media buying, the CPA stuff. Pretty similar to ,I imagine a lot of people’s journeys, in terms of when I was just leaving my nine to five job, I was just like, my only thing I wanted was the money to do that.

Support myself without a job, that is always my dream, to have the time and freedom to do what I want and then once I got that then it was the same thing you did, how do we scale this as hard as we can because we found a formula that works.

[0:18:14.2] AD: Yes.

[0:18:15.9] RN: Did that and for me, it was — I think I found myself in a similar place to you where in my case, it was more of a business that wasn’t fulfilling to me, it wasn’t making an impact. I kind of shifted from that first business was very financial, transactional focused and money driven to be honest. I was to be completely transparent, chasing money which is obviously a bad thing to do.

I was able to catch it for a second but at the same time, it was like man, imagine if I was spending this past three years building something that like was impactful and fulfilling to me.

[0:18:47.3] AD: And matters.

[0:18:48.5] RN: And matters. That’s like, I think like you said, there’s different stages for everybody and that was my stage, it was very financial driven. Now it’s like okay, now I want to help inspire people to actually embrace failure, take action, get off their butts and actually do stuff.

Because that’s where the magic happens, it sort of happened for me was like, Phil McKernan, I was going to go see him today.

[0:19:08.0] AD: Yeah..

[0:19:08.4] RN: In the absence of clarity, take action. Right?

[0:19:11.7] AD: Totally.

[0:19:12.7] RN: Just go start doing something and you know, Jayson who we always talk about says,”You can’t steer a parked car.” Once you get moving, stuff opens up, opportunities come.

[0:19:21.5] AD: That’s so true.

[0:19:22.5] RN: I love that you have that perspective on different steps of the journey, you have different focuses right?

[0:19:27.7] AD: Yeah, nobody starts off with a grand vision of creating the most fulfilling impactful business in the world but also making a ton of money.

[0:19:33.7] RN: Totally, I think it’s so important like who you’re taking advice from is speaking to where you’re at in the journey because you know, if you’re taking advice from somebody running a 10 million dollar company, they’re going to give you very different advice than somebody who has been there and bootstrap stuff from the ground up.

[0:19:49.6] AD: Yeah, totally. I like what you said in terms of going back a little bit. Reaching out to people just in terms of advice, reaching out to people that have done what you want to do. Like your advice in terms of if you’re in a nine to five job, you know, find somebody that has some business experience that you can partner with.

One thing that also does, kind of a byproduct of it is you’re almost elevating your network right?

[0:20:10.1] RN: Yeah. Because you’re starting to spend more time with that guy and that guy’s networks a level above yours and then from there, it’s like, you’re just consistently going up. In your journey, how have you surround yourself by people that are doing better than you?

[0:20:10.7] AD: Yeah, I obsess with this early on, my first mentor when I was 18 years old, he was the dean of our business school and he said, he just pounded into my head, It’s not what you know, it’s who you know. I took that real seriously. Guys like I grew up on a farm in Iowa, we have no connections to business, I spent 18 years there, I hardly left the Midwest.

Going to Des Moine, Iowa for college was like the biggest city in the world, I might as well have been in New York City because there was so — they had stop lights and taxi cabs. That is how sheltered I was growing up you know?

The internet’s like flat lined everything. I’ve consistently been reaching out to mentors and like helping people where I can. You know, the first mentor was the dean of the business school, the second one was Adam Caroll, he ran a professional speaking business, he taught college students how to do this stuff, he was the one that got me in to doing the speaking thing.

From there, it’s just been like a consistent — somebody introduces me to this person, who expands and so on and so forth to getting, we’ve just got — I feel very blessed with the crew of people that we’re connected to now, it’s really amazing.

[0:21:30.2] RN: For the person listening that maybe doesn’t have that network that they want but they’re open to starting to elevate that. What’s a good first step in terms of — can I take an inventory of who you're surrounding yourself with now and also looking at like what you want to do and what you want to achieve?

[0:21:46.0] AD: Yup, one, figure out who you want to cut. I mean, it sounds harsh but I think it’s true, you got to create space if you want to. We have limited amounts of time so who — look at who is in your life and like in five years, do you see them being in your life still? With the trajectory you’re on? If not, like, it’s time to do something there.

Second, there’s some options. If you want to build a network, options one is to pay for it, go to events, go join communities, do something there, second option is to create it yourself where when I moved to boulder I didn’t know anyone in Boulder so I started hosting a mastermind for online marketing people in Boulder.

That got me connected to a lot of the people that I’m really friends with now. Third option is exactly what I did with Clay. I told you, I joined Clay’s course, I ended up launching a course and like having a — becoming one of the star testimonials and case studies. If you want to get in with somebody who you really admire and like buy their product, go through the stuff, get results with it and tell them about the results.

It’s like the immediate fast track to them wanting to hang out with you.

[0:22:45.3] RN: Right, because they made a difference in that person’s life and one, that’s what it’s all about right? Like you said, it’s impact fulfillment. If you can help somebody start a business and actually change somebody’s life, no dollar amount can put a — you can’t put a price tag on that.

[0:22:58.4] AD: Totally. It gives them more proof of what they’re teaching works and more validation and more like — I think those three ways, you want to pay for it, that’s one option, create it or find a way to work with somebody who is teaching and get results for them.

[0:23:11.8] RN: Love it, being The Fail on Podcast, how would you define failure?

[0:23:16.2] AD: We have a mantra in The Foundation, it’s like, there is no failure, there’s only progress. That one really encompasses it, I think failure happens when you stop, when you give it up.

[0:23:26.7] RN: Or don’t start.

[0:23:27.0] AD: Or don’t start, yeah. I mean, that’s really like the core of it. I think people often think of failure as what happens when reality doesn’t match expectations. They set a goal, they have expectations so the goal of reality doesn’t match it.

They assume that there’s failure at some level but…

[0:23:44.2] RN: Just lower your expectations?

[0:23:47.5] AD: You want to never fail again. Don’t expect anything out of life which is one approach.

[0:23:55.5] RN: Let’s go to The Foundation a little bit.

[0:23:56.1] AD: Yeah.

[0:23:56.9] RN: You started at what? 2012?

[0:24:00.1] AD: Yeah, the end of the first version in 2011 and then we launched The Foundation 2012.

[0:24:04.1] RN: Got it. Tell us what it is, how it makes money, what’s the team size right now and what are you looking to do in the future.

[0:24:11.9] AD: Yeah, The Foundation helps people start and scale software businesses from scratch, we focus on scrappy boot-strapped hustling entrepreneurs. The funny thing is, we teach software but software’s really hard to get in to especially if you’re a first time entrepreneur.

We’ve had all sorts of other businesses come out of it. Chandler Bolt with a self-publishing school. He dropped out of college, built a seven figure business, Cathryn and Allen with The Self-Journal, they just went chop and built a business competition. Carl Mattiola quit Tesla, Tim Ovens with consulting. It’s just like the list goes on and on of stuff that’s like outside of it.

What we really specialized and focused on and put a lot of attention is teaching people the mindset around bootstrapping as an entrepreneur and where the psychology piece matters so much and then two, we teach really heavily the direct response marketing validation and sales.

If you have to prioritize cash flow first, how do you go about starting a business that way and that’s where we focus our time and energy.

[0:25:03.8] RN: Just to touch on both those pieces for somebody listening. On the mindset piece, what’s the biggest hurdle from those aspiring entrepreneurs that are first time getting to…

[0:25:13.1] AD: The biggest hurdle I experience with first time entrepreneurs is the emotional ride that entrepreneurship is and because they’re not as aware of their emotions, they become controlled by them and their emotions dictate their actions.

You know, we talk a lot about limiting beliefs and what’s empowering, what’s limiting, how is that affecting people and so when it comes to the topic of failure or fear that people have. People may be paralyzed by fear but they may not know that they’re actually experiencing fear.

When they’re not aware that they’re experiencing fear, they’ll procrastinate and they’ll put stuff off and they’ll find ways to do other things as supposed to just actually feeling the feel that’s there and allowing it to be okay and knowing that it’s actually natural and part of the progression of entrepreneurship and taking action anyway like we talked about. That’s what I think the biggest hurdle is for people that are getting started.

[0:26:03.6] RN: I’ve talked to a lot of people about this actually and one thing that’s come up recently is, and not necessarily in this context in terms of like leaning in to the fear of failure but it’s actually like, internalizing and being okay, when people go through really tough times, like I talk to two people in a row about this, Nicholas Kusmich I don’t know if you know.

[0:26:20.8] AD: Yeah, that guy, I don’t know him but I’ve heard of him.

[0:26:23.0] RN: Great guy. Being okay feeling it, not trying to push past it so much but actually just internalizing and be like, “Okay, this is pain, this hurts, this sucks but I feel it and I’m going to be okay with it.” I think it’s the same thing with fear.

[0:26:35.9] AD: Totally.

[0:26:37.5] RN: Okay, I feel what I feel right now but I’m going to sit here, I’m going to internalize it, I’m going to be okay with it and I’m not just going to try and run from it.

[0:26:44.5] AD: Yeah. Being with it and not running from it and I think this is actually the key to making faster results for people. Because we’ve talked about this idea of okay, there is no failure, there’s only progress but that’s kind of a limited way of putting it because if you set a goal and you don’t hit the goal and you just say, “Well there’s no failure, there’s only progress.”

But you don’t take the time to actually feel the sadness, the grief, the frustration, it’s actually those negative emotions that will propel you forward into the next experience. With this Etsy business, I launched this Etsy business in six weeks, we’re generating six grand a month in revenue. I was making 50 grand a year at the time.

It was a lot of money for me and all of a sudden, quitting became really real. Six months later, we ended up shutting the site down, we didn’t know what to do moving forward, we just couldn’t keep people coming in the door and there was this huge like unconscious, self-sabotage thing that was happening, it was an upper limit thing, I got so close to my goal and then I freaked out because it was going to be real.

I had the experience of, just imagine guys, that was two years in corporate America, at this point, I thought that I was going to be like running my own business, doing my own thing, I had all the excitement and expectations of launching this thing so fast and then it all came crumbling down and a year later, I felt like I was further behind than I was a year before, in my life.

Feeling like the experience and the terror of feeling like I would never get out of corporate America and it was actually feeling all of those feelings that allowed me to move in to the next thing with a different level of power, excitement and tenacity moving forward to it.

[0:28:17.0] RN: I like that. How do you prevent that from happening? Because it’s a common theme, there’s a lot of people I talk to, it’s the self-sabotage thing where you’re, like you said, you're starting to hit your upper limit, what you thought was possible right?

And then you're like crap.

[0:28:31.6] AD: Yeah.

[0:28:32.0] RN: Then you just start doing stuff subconsciously to…

[0:28:36.5] AD: Completely subconsciously.

[0:28:40.4] RN: For somebody that gets to that point, how do you prevent that from happening? Yeah, is there a way or do you have to go through it?

[0:28:45.6] AD: You know, I think you have to go through it at least once. I think it is scary though, I think it continually happens, I think you continually bump up against it as we’re continuing to grow, whatever it is next.

I think the moment that you start experiencing thoughts or feelings of like it can’t be this good, it can’t be this easy, those are kind of like data points. The moment where you know, I think it’s been a challenge for me which is growing up in a small town Iowa working so hard, imagining work always had to be hard and if it’s not hard then something’s weird, something’s wrong, it can’t be.

[0:29:14.6] RN: Totally, that makes sense. Because you’re used to associating a dollar with sweat.

[0:29:19.9] AD: Yeah, totally.

[0:29:20.9] RN: Calloused hands.

[0:29:21.9] AD: Totally, calloused hands yeah. If it becomes easy then unconsciously I think that something is bad or something is wrong.

[0:29:29.7] RN: I want to get to, the end of The Foundation, the second point you mentioned was how to kind of eliminate risk in terms of starting a new project, whether it be software or whatever it was. How do you — whether for yourself and your own ventures or for your students.

How do you assess risk in terms of whether or not you should pursue a project or venture?

[0:29:48.3] AD: How do I assess risk? The fastest and the best way that I have ever figured out how to assess risk is to pre-sell whatever it is that you’re trying to build. This can be done, you know, you watch this with kick starters blowing up over the past few years, it’s pre selling, it’s helping people remove the risk of entrepreneurship.

Colleges, they pre-sell their classes every year. It’s like, people think of pre selling as kind of a foreign thing if they hear about it for the first time but I think that’s the fastest way so if you have a business idea, whether it is a software product or Amazon product.

[0:30:18.4] RN: It’s good too like hypothetical here if you don’t mind.

[0:30:20.5] AD: Yeah, let’s go through it now. You have an idea for a software product. First question is, who is going to buy it? Who is going to be your first customer? Usually it’s somebody, a friend. A friend or family member or like someone in your contact database. First thing I would do is I would mock up the designs, what’s the design’s going to look like and I would put them into…

[0:30:37.7] RN: this an app or is it an actual — desktop app.

[0:30:40.8] AD: What do you want to talk about?

[0:30:41.8] RN: Let’s go mobile app.

[0:30:42.6] AD: Okay, let’s go mobile app. Here’s the deal, if you guys are starting with business stuff, it always comes down to like, what is the pain that you’re product’s going to solve? All right. Let’s use Carl for example. Carl is a foundation student, he built clinic metrics, it’s a dashboard app for physical therapist.

The problem that they had was that they didn’t know all their numbers in their business, it was like, mixed out through a whole bunch of different excel spreadsheets and then they weren’t updated. He mocked up a design of what one would look like and went to a physical therapist and said hey, would you be interested in buying something like this?

Then they’re going to say yes or no. If they say yes, great, if they say no, then you can start going down the rabbit hole, why? What is it? Does it not solve the problem? Is the design shitty? Is there other things that you’re wanting? And you let them guide you. This again, this is all done with just basic designs of something so you’re not actually building.

[0:31:31.3] RN: Spending a lot of money.

[0:31:31.3] AD: Yeah.

[0:31:31.7] RN: Not building the software.

[0:31:32.8] AD: Totally. It’s the biggest, as I imagined getting first time entrepreneurs go out and do this stuff. The hardest part is getting them to go out and do this stuff, I would imagine right?

[0:31:40.6] RN: Totally. Because it’s not the actual execution of coming up with an idea and figuring out what that solution needs to be, it’s more of like we talked about, the mindset shift of you have to go out and do stuff that’s uncomfortable, you have to go and talk to people, you have to go in person and like, show something that you know, show a mockup, that’s terrifying to a lot of people.

[0:32:00.6] AD: Totally.

[0:32:01.5] RN: Is that the biggest challenge in terms of getting to the students you work with?

[0:32:04.0] AD: You know, I think the biggest fear for people in the beginning is fear of rejection and fear of selling. I experimented this year. I want to experiment with doing a couple of deep dives with people and bringing people for a day and working with them for a day and seeing what happens.

I brought a developer who came here in Boulder and we actually did it just a block from here. His biggest fear is fear of selling and so we spent a lot of the first morning like doing like the deeper psychological work on it and then in the afternoon, I gave him a challenge. The challenge was to make 10 bucks or something like that selling jokes.

What we ended up doing is we wrote, we took a big sheet of paper and we said, Boulder’s a very liberal town so we put “Donald Trump jokes, one dollar.” Donald Trump jokes $1.

[0:32:46.3] RN: That’s great.

[0:32:47.5] AD: It was like a reminder of how powerful copy is because no joking, we got a block away and we’re just walking this sign and we’re like, we literally have two people who were in a building, they knock on the window and they see our sign and they’re like, “Come here” and they gave him a dollar which is really kind of annoying because we’re trying to get him over his fear of selling and he just had good copy so he didn’t have to sell as much.

Then we eventually shifted in doing something a little more meaningful but it was just a fascinating experience of okay, you want to get over your fear of selling or your fear of rejection? Try something like that. Walk around, go to I think street entertainers are the most fascinating people to watch because, from nothing, they’re building a whole show and then getting cash right at the end.

[0:33:26.7] RN: Getting the audience, building the demand.

[0:33:28.4] AD: The demand, the momentum.

[0:33:29.7] RN: It’s really impressive actually.

[0:33:31.1] AD: Really cool.

[0:33:31.9] RN: I don’t’ think people give them the credit.

[0:33:32.8] AD: Oh my God. It’s amazing. Yeah, fear of rejection, fear of selling, like those are the first two to get over it and the fastest way to get over it, the only way to get over it that I found is to just do it. Get on the phone, call people, cold email them, whatever you got to do.

[0:33:47.5] RN: On this note, the whole idea of this project of Fail On is to push people into action and getting outside your comfort zone which is a huge theme of what you're talking about. When’s the last time that you actually got outside your comfort zone and what were you doing?

Whether it’s a small thing or a big thing, it doesn’t matter.

[0:34:03.6] AD: Yeah, this weekend we did — I’ve been getting, I told you I’ve been getting into the man stuff. Four times in the past two years.

[0:34:10.4] RN: He means building man skills, not like going after men.

[0:34:16.2] AD: Man stuff, thanks for clarifying that.

[0:34:17.6] RN: Just to clear that up.

[0:34:20.6] AD: Four times in the past year, I’ve been first on the scene of an accident and I’ve had to call 911 and for four times I’ve had the experience of being first there, calling 911 and not knowing what to do and feeling completely helpless.

Like an idiot waiting for smart people to show up to do stuff. It was really not enjoyable. This weekend I did a training to learn the basics of medical stuff and it was like gross. They showed like — it was intense. That was one thing recently we just tried a bunch of, like test with pay traffic within The Foundation, that’s another thing. I think what’s really interesting for me is what is the thing that I’ve been putting off that I should be doing that I’m talking to right now, that I’m like — If you’re listening to this right now, I want you to think about what is the one thing that you know secretly that you should probably do but you’ve been afraid to do.

[0:35:13.5] RN: We all have it.

[0:35:14.1] AD: We all have it.

[0:35:14.7] RN: I know what mine is.

[0:35:15.3] AD: Do you?

[0:35:17.2] RN: It’s to go speak in front of people.

[0:35:18.1] AD: Go speak in front of people?

[0:35:18.8] RN: Yeah, it’s always been a big — I’m the opposite of you. I haven’t always want to do, I’ve always never wanted to do that, that’s what tells me I need to go do that.

[0:35:26.2] AD: You should go do it.

[0:35:26.6] RN: Exactly.

[0:35:28.2] AD: Mine is to go sing a karaoke song sober. Do you know how terrifying that is to me?

[0:35:33.9] RN: Yes I do.

[0:35:35.3] AD: It’s like…

[0:35:37.2] RN: Sober. That’s what the life for me.

[0:35:42.8] AD: Do you want to commit to it? Are you getting that feeling in your stomach right now?

[0:35:44.8] RN: Yeah, I’m totally getting that feeling in my stomach. Shit. Do you want to put a date on it?

[0:35:49.5] AD: Yeah, I do, I will.

[0:35:52.0] RN: Let’s hear it, let’s put the date on right now.

[0:35:53.5] AD: God damn it.

[0:35:54.5] RN: And we got to get this on film too so I can toast you.

[0:35:59.2] AD: Okay, if I do this, I’m going — okay guys, here’s the deal. When is this going to air? Do you know?

[0:36:05.6] RN: It’s flexible.

[0:36:06.6] AD: It’s flexible. Okay. I’m going to put a date of say June 1st. God damn it.

[0:36:13.1] RN: It’s real now.

[0:36:14.3] AD: June 1st, here’s the deal. I want — here’s what’s going to make this real. Okay great. This actually works. Here’s what’s going to make this real. I will do this, the one thing that seals this deal in is that I want at least one person in the audience to email and tell me what they’re going to do.

Don’t let the whole bystander effect where you think that everybody else is going to email in and then nobody actually does. If you want to do this and then I’ll put a video of it. God, I don’t know if I’ll put a video of it but I will at least put photos or something.

If you email me, One of you just has to email me, that’s it. And if you email me and commit to what you’re going to do, it seals me in for June 1st What about you?

[0:36:56.3] RN: I knew that was coming. I’m just waiting on that. No, I’ll do something to budge in first.

[0:36:59.8] AD: What are you going to do?

[0:37:01.1] RN: Talk in front of people I guess.

[0:37:03.3] AD: How many?

[0:37:04.2] RN: I’ve got to figure out how to get in front of people first, let’s say baby steps for me, say 15.

[0:37:10.9] AD: Yeah.

[0:37:11.4] RN: Small steps.

[0:37:12.8] AD: Great.

[0:37:13.3] RN: But still, I got that feeling too right now so I love it, all right done, we just went there.

[0:37:19.9] AD: Goddamn.

[0:37:20.4] RN: I know. So that’s done, it’s done so okay, we’ve done them for each other and obviously we’ll have somebody email in. For everybody else, if you have to lay out a challenge for people, what’s one thing that they could do even today listening to this, what’s the challenge that you could lay out for them that will slightly get them outside of their comfort zone just to start growing that muscle a little bit?

[0:37:44.8] AD: Oh no, this is it. That’s the only one because here’s the deal, I could give you a thousand things that I should be doing that are little right now it would move the needle a fraction of what you actually want. So if you’re thinking of something when we are talking about this and we are doing this little exercise and you thought of something that’s the thing that you need to do and whether that is like you need to text somebody and complete a relationship or you need to tell somebody that, “Hey if I don’t do this by this day I will give you a 100 bucks” whatever it is, you need to commit to a baby step with that one thing.

[0:38:16.2] RN: After you’re done listening to this, write it down immediately and make it real.

[0:38:19.4] AD: Yeah, totally and then email me so I know what it is and I can actually hold you accountable to it.

[0:38:26.3] RN: It’s all about accountability. All right so for somebody listening that maybe wants to... maybe that knot in their stomach is they want to start a business or they want to get out of their nine to five job or replace their income and they came to you and it’s like, “I don’t know, I don’t have a business idea, I don’t know where to get started” I know you deal with this a lot, what’s one directive or like as a step one.

[0:38:46.0] AD: Here’s the first thing I would do, I would make a list of everybody you know who’s had some sort of success in business or who’s running a business or who is an entrepreneur at some level. I would make a list of all of them and I would shoot them an email and I would have the email say something like this:

“Hey, I really want to get into business. I know you have been doing it for a while. I want to get into business by helping people who have painful problems. I want to solve something for you. So I’m wondering can we talk for 30 minutes and I can just ask you questions about your business about what’s working for you and what it isn’t and see if there is anything that I can help with and I would send that to everybody that you know and I would set up as many calls as you possibly can”

“And on those calls, I would set the calls up so that it is designed so that you’re figuring out where they have pain points that you can help them solve whether that’s in operations thing or it’s a marketing thing or whatever it is and eventually try and find one problem that you can solve over and over for the same group of people”.

[0:39:37.5] RN: Do you guys typically tease and like to look at external problems or do you sometimes look at internal problems like solving a problem that you have for yourself or a frustration or you have for yourself or you think it’s better to look at it externally?

[0:39:51.1] AD: Here’s how I think about that, is that if you’re just getting started in business and you don’t have that, the problem is everybody is always like, “Solve the problems you have”. When I was 21 years old I didn’t have any problems except that I don’t have enough money to drink on the weekends, right? That was my problem so it didn’t work for me as much. As I get farther into business, it makes more sense.

[0:40:10.8] RN: You see more issues.

[0:40:11.3] AD: Yeah, you get a bigger, broader understanding of the landscape. If you are 45 years old and you are listening to this, you should definitely consider solving a problem that you have because you’ve got the experience to do it. Jason Freed preaches solve the problems that you have. He did that after he had a successful web design agency that was doing all of these stuff. So if you are just getting started in business, I think that is the way to start is to figure out what other people’s problems are.

[0:40:31.7] RN: And it forces you to grow and shift the mindset of, “Okay, I have to go talk to people. I’ve actually got to get some balls and actually go do stuff and get outside of my own comfort zone”.

[0:40:40.6] AD: Yeah and the best way to start is with friends and family and contacts because it is easier and then you can move onto the cold emails and then doing all of that but yeah, I think it’s the best way.

[0:40:49.9] RN: Who’s had the single most profound impact on your life looking back and making you say to yourself, “I literary might not be sitting here if they weren’t in my life”?

[0:40:59.6] AD: Well I mean parents are the default answer and that are obvious and thank God for them. My dad when I was 16 years old, I went to work with him in the construction stuff and he was like, “Andy I’m going to teach you how to run a struggle this summer so you’ll learn that you don’t want to spend the rest of your life doing this” because they have a family construction business and that’s literally what I would be destined to do if I didn’t start actually caring about education.

So that was a really significant inflection point and then I told you I got really sick a couple of years ago and I read this book Nature in the Human Soul. If you are going through any sort of major life transition right now, this is the best book that I’ve ever found. This is the book that I’ve gifted the most out of all books in my life and it talks about the evolution of humans and how we’re supposed to evolve for us into manhood, what does manhood look like and I ended up putting my life on hold for two months.

I worked with this man in Bali named David Gates and we did two to three hours a day of breath work and body work and it was one of the most significant like impactful experiences in my life and we still see each other every quarter so he’s been a guide for me.

[0:42:00.6] RN: What was the biggest take away from it? What changed fundamentally in your life from it?

[0:42:04.4] AD: You know I told you I felt like I went through a phase of trying to build businesses to prove something or to fill some sort of insecurity. I feel like I don’t build business without reason anymore and that feels really, really me.

[0:42:19.2] RN: So what are you most excited about now? You obviously have The Foundation going on, any other ventures that you’re excited about or anything personally?

[0:42:24.5] AD: Yeah, I’ll keep doing man stuff. So I took a survival course.

[0:42:28.6] RN: Yeah just to clarify again.

[0:42:30.5] AD: Yeah, seriously I think learning to like survival skills has been really cool, learning medical skills has been really cool. This idea of do you want to be an asset to society or a liability to society and not just in a business standpoint but understanding the basics of human living and then the other thing that’s really fascinating, I’ve been working with a couple of people that are like loaded with six figured businesses to help them scale beyond into mid-seven figures and I’m having a lot of fun with that.

[0:42:57.1] RN: Do you like that? Just out of curiosity, do you prefer taking a business that has The Foundation versus something from complete scrap?

[0:43:05.1] AD: Yeah, I mean here’s the deal. If you are listening and you guys come to The Foundation it takes a little while to get the basics. There’s just a lot to teach and learn. It’s like drinking out of a fire hose. In one of the companies we’ve been working together for two months now within three to four months, he’s low to mid six figures, would have doubled his entire business within three to four months working together and cut his hours back.

[0:43:25.7] RN: And then when you’re diving into that business, what are you looking at? What are you looking to change?

[0:43:31.0] AD: Yeah, I think for entrepreneurs there’s two realms. If you look at a Venn diagram, on the left side you have strategies and tactics which is like hardcore, what is this stuff that actually works and on the other side, you have present and being-ness and how are you showing up in the world and I think the sweet spot is where you start playing in the middle where they overlap. I think when you can do that, that’s where results really take off for people to all of that and then the last thing I’m super fucking stoked about it AI and what is happening in the AI space, it’s wild and I think it’s going to completely be a game changer over the next 24 months.

[0:44:03.1] RN: What part of AI?

[0:44:04.2] AD: I’m talking to a company now, they’re a 90 persons offer company and they have 50 or 60 employees that are customer support focused and they get tens of thousands of request every single month and over half of those requests are basic mundane requests that any smart robot can answer but it is really complex to be able to build a robot to do that but if we can, it is a two to four million dollar problem that they experience and it’s a really fascinating space. So that’s what I am exploring right now.

[0:44:35.2] RN: And what are your thoughts on 50 to 60 people heading customer support calls? So those people are out of jobs once those robots are built, no?

[0:44:41.7] AD: I don’t think so.

[0:44:42.4] RN: You think it is going to be like a complimentary type role?

[0:44:45.7] AD: It allows them to do higher level strategic things. So what will happen is that there are different tiers for the company. They’ll actually have an opportunity to sell a higher tier where they can sell strategy along with stuff. Here’s the deal, yeah, they’re out of jobs, there’s nobody that I know that is like, “Oh man I can’t wait to wake up today and tell people how to reset their account” or process refunds, you know?

We are freeing people to create more cool stuff in the world and I think what happens is when you have a gap like that and all of these stuff gets replaced it creates a massive opening for more creativity and more things to be innovated on and I don’t think those jobs will be lost. I think from talking with them, they’ll actually apply them to doing higher level stuff and I think their staff will be more excited by it.

[0:45:28.1] RN: More engaged, yeah.

[0:45:29.1] AD: Yeah.

[0:45:29.8] RN: Dude thanks for the time.

[0:45:30.8] AD: Dude, thank you man.

[0:45:31.9] RN: Next time, see you.


[0:45:40.1] RN: All right, so you could find Andy at He’s @andydrish on Twitter and of course, all the links and resources Andy and I discussed including more information on his company, The Foundation can be found at the page created especially for this episode, that’s on and all action items on this episode will be sitting on — branding expert, share some struggles and — it’s an amazing episode, he’s a great guy. You don’t want to miss it.

As I continue to build this project out with the simple goal of getting people to once and for all decide that they are going to fail their way to creating an inspired life, if you could do one thing to support the cause I would be super grateful. When you click on the subscribe button and leave a rating and quick review, this simply allows the podcast to be visible to more people. To rate and review the podcast, just go to or


[0:46:40.1] ANNOUNCER: That’s all for this episode of The Fail On Podcast. For more resources, show notes and action items to help you find success in your failures, sign up for our mailing list at

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