How To Start A Business Working For Free With Nicholas Kusmich

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Nicholas Kusmich is best known as the World’s Leading Facebook Advertising Strategist and for having the highest ROI’s in the industry.

He works with A-List clients including top thought-leaders, NYT Best Selling Authors, Inc 500 and fast growth companies creating advertising campaigns that convert.

He specializes in using his proprietary Contextual Congruence methodology, which creates mass conversions on social platforms.

Nicholas is the bestselling author of the newly released book Give: The Ultimate Guide to using Facebook Advertising to Generate more Leads, more Clients and Massive ROI.

We have an inspiring conversation, a heartbreaking conversation at times, and one that will surely bring you enormous value.

We’ll be discussing how it’s okay to give up and how to know exactly when to move on.

He shares the precise moment he saw the opportunity in starting his business and the value in mastering Facebook ads.

He shares how entrepreneurship isn’t glamorous and can actually be extremely painful in so many different ways.


Key Points From This Episode:

  • Nicholas tells us what he was doing before entrepreneurship and how he transitioned.
  • Hear what was the toughest struggle for Nicholas to get started and gain traction.
  • Learn when Nicholas thinks it’s an appropriate time to quit.
  • Learn how having a destroyed marriage was a blessing in disguise.
  • Understand the tipping point that made him leave pastoring.
  • Nicholas gives advice to people wanting to get out of something that isn’t right for them.
  • Nicholas shares with us how most people aren’t cut out to be entrepreneurs.
  • Hear Nicholas talk about some of his lowest points in life and how he overcame them.
  • Understand Nicholas’s journey and how he got to a point of wanting to take his own life.
  • Learn how Nicholas pulled himself out of that rut.
  • Find out how Nicholas embraces the present.
  • Discover why Nicholas encourages people in similar situations to find their WHY.
  • Hear what lead Nicholas into the business he is in now.
  • Learn how Nicholas started growing his business.
  • Find out how to decide which route to take in terms of promoting your business.
  • Understand what has been the toughest parts at the beginning for Nicholas.
  • Discover how failure effected Nicholas’s mindset.
  • Hear why you need to get out of your comfort zone and make yourself uncomfortable.
  • And much more!









Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:

Nicholas Kusmich —

Nicholas on Twitter —

Nicholas’s book, Give

Vector Marketing —

CutCo. —

Hal Elrod —

John Ruhlin —

Dan Sullivan —

Shark Tank —

Brian Tracy —

Robert Kiyosaki’s book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad

Eckhart Tolle —


Jayson Gaignard —

Giovanni Marsico —

The Berkeley Church Toronto —

Todd Herman —

90 Day Year —

Michael Gavin —

Tim Ferris —

Dean Jackson —

Brian Smith —

Noah Kagan —

Transcript Below

Read Full Transcript


“NK: Again, I think the bigger needle mover would be for the person to do what I did and make some offers to people that you might be afraid to make offers to and you’ll see if you can deliver on the goods, it will be a game changer for you.”


[0:00:25.1] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Fail on Podcast where we explore the hardships and obstacles today’s industry leaders face on their journey to the top of their fields, through careful insight and thoughtful conversation. By embracing failure, we’ll show you how to build momentum without being consumed by the result.

Now please welcome your host, Rob Nunnery.


[0:00:43.1] RN: Hey there and welcome to the show that believes you are destined for more and that failing your way to an inspired life is the only way to get there. Today, we are sitting down with Nicholas Kusmich. Nick is the world’s leading Facebook ad strategist and is the guy behind the highest campaign ROI’s in the world. He’s also the bestselling author of the newly released book Give, the ultimate guide to using Facebook advertising to generate more leads, more clients and massive ROI.

It’s an inspiring conversation, a heartbreaking conversation at times and one that will surely bring you enormous value. We’ll be discussing how it’s okay to give up and how to know exactly when to move on, the precise moment he saw the opportunity in starting his business and the value in mastering Facebook ads and how entrepreneurship isn’t glamorous, it can actually be extremely painful in so many different ways and much more.

But first, if you’d like to stay up to date on all fail on podcast interviews and key takeaways from each guest, simply go to and sign up for our newsletter at the bottom of the page. That’s


[0:01:54.7] RN: Nicholas, welcome to the fail on podcast my man.

[0:01:56.6] NK: Hey Rob, I am excited to be here and excited to talk about failure.

[0:02:01.7] RN: I love it. We last met about a year ago and we had some really interesting conversations around kind of what you did in your past, how you got into entrepreneurship, even faith. Before we start talking about your current ventures and stuff, let’s go back to what you’re doing pre-entrepreneurship and how that kind of transitioned into starting a business?

[0:02:21.2] NK: yeah, looking on it at hindsight, it almost feels like the whole journey was in some way entrepreneurial, let’s rewind back to – I witness my dad have his first heart attack when I was four years old. I’m an only child, because I’m an only child, I remember when I was – I don’t know, 16, 17.

Mom coming home tears in her eyes crying literally and I’m thinking, “what just happened” and dad had a heart attack so it meant that they had to stop working, they had a little business that they ran together. Dad had stopped working because of this heart attack and mom comes home crying and I’m thinking, “what on earth just happened.”

She had gone through a job interview and didn’t get the job because she’s older and she couldn’t speak English well. I just remember sitting in my living room, thinking to myself, “I’m never going to let that happen again, I’m never going to let mom be in a situation where she feels like she has to work to support the family.”

With my back up against the wall, being an only child, I was almost like forced into entrepreneurship if you will. I started looking at opportunities, unfortunately, that’s not a good thing because when you're desperate, you look at opportunities and most opportunities are not the best but it got me open you know, to trying these new things and I remember one of my first endeavors outside of my desire to make an impact through my faith which led me into a pastoring role, I was a kind of on two parallel paths at the same time.

One on the business side was, I just got to figure out a way to make some money, pay for my – not for my even my lifestyle, to support my family.

[0:03:43.4] RN: Coming out of school, did you get a job like the topical route that most people go, school, job, family, that kind of thing?

[0:03:49.8] NK: No because I just was finishing up high school and then this happened, my parents lost their business. You know, on this path. I joined in multilevel marketing company, I was joining in all this kind of make money online type of thing.

[0:04:04.8] RN: Is that your first kind of business? How you’re introduced to it really? That’s funny.

[0:04:09.0] NK: They made it seem so easy, “I’m going to be a kazillionaire in like three weeks, this is it, this is amazing” and obviously very quickly realize that’s not the case at all. Then I went down the path of, I remember again, I’m desperate, I saw a newspaper ad back when those existed that said “hey, make something like $17 an hour” and I remember at the time, minimum wage at least where I lived was like four or five bucks.

“17 bucks an hour, what is this?” I remember going in an interview walking in, there’s a bunch of like people my age like high school and just a little older, “what the hell is going on,” it was a group interview, it’s not even the same and the guy gets up in the front of the room and he cuts a rope in half with a knife and he’s basically – you’re going to sell these, that’s my introduction to Vector Marketing and Cutco.

I’m like, “well, if I can still get paid – the pitch was like $17.29 an hour guaranteed. Well, whatever, I’ll cut rope all day long.”

[0:05:00.2] RN: Cutco is the way a lot of guys, I think we both know, got into entrepreneurship. Hal Elrod, John Ruhlin. Who else, there’s quite a few.

[0:05:07.2] NK: Almost everyone I know.

[0:05:10.3] RN: It teaches such a valuable skill right?

[0:05:11.4] NK: It does. Would I do it again? Maybe not but the fact that that’s what was presented before me and I had to get really good at a skill really quickly. Now fortunately, for me, I don’t know where this came from, maybe just came from my genes because I was told dad was a salesman in his career.

I did well, they called me Mr. Ultimate because the most expensive knives that you could sell there was the ultimate set and was a $2,200 knife set and something just clicked in my mind to say “well, I could either sell the $500 one or I could sell the $2,000 one. If I’m going to be in the person’s house anyways, I’m going for the $2,000 one and even if they say no to that, then the $500 one seems like a bargain.”

They called me Mr. Ultimate because I was just like “hell, we’re just going to sell ultimate’s” and I had the most ultimate sales ever. Not because I think I was great but I think I was the only guy who had the balls to like let’s just sell ultimate’s.

[0:05:59.0] RN: just focus on that, yeah.

[0:05:59.9] NK: Yeah. That was like my Parlay into entrepreneurship. Again, you’re a contractor, you got to pay your own bills, you got to pay your own expenses.

[0:06:07.5] RN: It’s hard right? You’re going out selling. Exactly.

[0:06:11.7] NK: You’re selling them stuff that they don’t kind of want, I mean, nobody is thinking, “I’m going to spend $2,000 on a pair of knives or a set of knives.”

[0:06:17.8] RN: We shook up my house.

[0:06:19.8] NK: Nobody is thinking that. You’re in a position which is very anti my ethos right now. My ethos never says go try to sell someone something they don’t want.

[0:06:28.0] RN: Like interruption type marketing which is what you're totally…

[0:06:31.1] NK: And like super manipulative is not the right word but almost. If you see some of the world’s best salesman, they’ll call it influence but really, it’s persuasion and manipulation. That’s just so against my ethos but I guess at the time, I’m like, “well I’m going to learn a skillset.”

We went on, I did well for a 17-year-old kid. That opened me up into a direct selling company and then basically my job there was to get on stage and people would bring people into a room, a hotel room and I’d give a presentation try and sell this thing and that kind of parlayed into things and things until I was kind of introduced to the internet marketing world.

That is again, I mean, it’s super slimy, some of the worst people in the world are there and some of the best people in the world are there but introduce me to another way to do business. Long story short of that is, that was a rabbit hole that I went down that led to one thing that led to another that then had me find this Facebook thing and now, at least currently, our business revolves entirely around Facebook advertising. Yeah.

[0:07:29.2] RN: Outside of your current business which I want to talk about as well. Going back, looking down at your journey, what has been the toughest struggle in terms of getting started and really getting traction in business?

Was it just that? Was it the getting started and figuring out what you want to do piece or was it once you got started?

[0:07:45.3] NK: I think for me it was less about what I wanted to do because I was never attached to this like passion theology that basically says “hey, find what you love and do it.” I was never attached to that because I was not afforded that luxury.

I was not waking up in the morning passionate about selling knives but I had to do it. I was not passionate about selling this wealth experiences from stage but I had no choice, I had to do it.

[0:08:07.0] RN: very financial driven at first because that’s what you needed right?

[0:08:11.5] NK: Yeah, exactly. My narrative taught me and god bless the people who are like, “hey, find your passion and follow it” but like my whole life experience has never been about that. To this day, I don’t wake up in the morning super passionate about Facebook ads.

I have passion about helping people, warning people but that’s you know, a side note. I think the hardest thing for me was, maybe I had bought in to the lie that it was going to be easy and so I went in like, “I’m an overachiever, I got this, I excel at everything that I do” and then I’m in this entrepreneurial game and then it wasn’t easy and I didn’t win, I didn’t sell and it was hard.

More than anything, I think it was just this mental aspect of confidence. I heard Dan Sullivan say one day and it just made more sense to me in the last couple of years but he said, “entrepreneurship is all about A, first, building confidence and then remaining in it.”

I just found that true about myself because the lie that it’s easy and it all works out and everything’s great all the time or the lie that hates a struggle until you get to a certain point and then it’s easy. No. Yeah though, I think the hardest struggles at the beginning was just kind of going through my own mental thing and picking yourself up and dusting yourself off when it doesn’t work.

Because how many times – I’m not a motivational guy, I’m not the guy who is like, “get up, if you get beat down, get back up” and I think there are appropriate times to quit.

[0:09:35.4] RN: When would be a perfect time to quit if you start something and…

[0:09:39.0] NK: I think if it becomes a true burden and is harming you and your family. I think people – I’ve seen that in my own life and I’ve seen it in others where they’re just so attached to an outcome but they’ve been fed the belief that never give up.

Quitters never win and winners never quit. They held on to that and they just keep going and going. Sometimes you got to just put up and surrender and say “well maybe this is not it?”

[0:10:03.2] RN: You see it on Shark Tank a lot right? Where this people are just – which one you know, they’re very passionate about what they’re doing which is amazing but it’s just obvious, it’s like so obvious to everybody that the business just doesn’t make sense.

[0:10:16.9] NK: At all.

[0:10:17.3] RN: They mortgage their house, they’re doing all of the stuff and they’re just like – when would you say, if somebody’s in that position where they’re kind of like running into the wall not breaking through yet because sometimes, success is right, it’s so close.

[0:10:31.5] NK: Yeah, three feet from gold.

[0:10:32.7] RN: Exactly and people quit. How do you find that balance of, do I keep pushing through it, am I that close to the goal or do I just quit?

[0:10:39.4] NK: I wish there was an easy answer and a formula that I don’t know. For me, whenever – again I think the general feeling was, whenever it felt like truly a burden, not a blessing, it was time to quit.

[0:10:48.6] RN: It’s more of like a gut type, this doesn’t feel right.

[0:10:51.0] NK: Gut and intuition but I think there’s also other signs like – you know, going back to the other parallel path that I was on, I was a pastor for 14 years of my life. Probably seven or eight years in, I knew that it was time to move on but I had the faith narrative saying, “you don’t give up on this” and then I had my over achiever belief tell me, :you never give up on anything, you endure, you press on” and I think I stayed in eight years or six seven years too long.

You know, at that mark, I felt like truly this was not a blessing to my life, it was a burden and a burden that I was caring under the guise of “I just carry burdens, that’s part of my life” and who’s to say if I left early or who knows what could have happened?

[0:11:37.0] RN: Now it’s full time though, you were doing business on the side or were you?

[0:11:39.8] NK: Full time, part time, everything was full time. It was full time but it was like less than half time for a time pay so I did have to have the business, the side hustle to pay the bills in my life. That was going on simultaneously.

[0:11:53.4] RN: What was that at the time?

[0:11:54.6] NK: That was the whole cut co.

[0:11:55.6] RN: So you were cut co driving.

[0:11:57.4] NK: That was the training, that was the internet marketing, that was all that, that was in my life to supplement the pastoring thing because the pastoring thing wasn’t paying the bills.

[0:12:06.1] RN: I felt like a lot of that is just kind of been foundational in terms of your journey of you learn direct selling, you started to learn internet marketing and it’s all kind of like – it’s built up to what you’re doing now with Facebook.

[0:12:18.6] NK: Yeah, I don’t know if that’s intentional or just happen to be how the cards lie, I don’t know if that was just me saying “hey, I have all these experiences, let’s see if I can utilize them.” One of the things I love to do now is speaker and I think you know, pastoring played a big role in that because every Sunday you’re on a stage and you’re speaking to people and so I try to carry that into what I do now, had I not done that, would I have loved speaking, I don’t know.

I wish I could say I was intelligent enough to think back and like look at all these perfect pieces in the pie that led to where we are today. I’m not that smart but yeah, you know, I look back. Actually, Brian Tracy has this great quote that I’m thinking about now who says, “if you knew then when you started, what you knew now, would you have gotten into it in the first place?”

If the answer is no, it’s time to get out. When I looked back on several experiences of my life, it was filled with those, if I knew then what I knew now, would I have gotten into it, and my answer was no, I wouldn’t have, I should have gone out.

I probably pushed on longer than I should have.

[0:13:21.3] RN: Six or seven years, that’s a long time to push.

[0:13:24.3] NK: But you see that, I think you see that everywhere, you see that in like people in bad relationships and just like, “let’s stay in,” you see that in the business endeavor and like, “let’s just stay in” or you know, speaking on another personal level, simultaneously, I’m married to a woman who you know, it was just not a healthy relationship.

The long and short of it is I found out she was having extra marital affairs with multiple people, people in my congregation when I was a pastor, it was just not a pleasant experience but my – I don’t condone leaving hard relationships, I don’t condone divorce, none of that stuff, especially being a pastor, the theology tells you, you can’t do that either.

Everything in me was like no matter how bad this is or how ugly this gets, you’re in this for life.

[0:14:08.9] RN: Right. What was the topping point where you’re like, maybe talking about quitting or keeping – pushing through it. What made you realize that that needed an end.

[0:14:18.2] NK: I think it was a combination of two things. One was and I think I had the easy way out. Putting back on my faith for a second, you know, the scripture at the time that I hold dearly to was, said that you cannot exit a relationship under any means but adultery. I was like okay, that’s interesting.

It was a combination of that and the fact that I basically felt like I didn’t have a choice because she left me completely at the same time. There was no desire on her part to make this work and I had initially made that desire to make it work.

I didn’t know how it was going to work it out and to be frank…

[0:14:54.3] RN: You had to be devastated,

[0:14:55.7] NK: devastated and I don’t know if we can cuss on this thing.

[0:14:58.9] RN: Cuss away.

[0:15:00.9] NK: I got to remember the context here. Devastated, I was broken, hands down for sure, no questions asked but I’m also fucking pissed off.

[0:15:10.0] RN: Yeah, I could imagine.

[0:15:10.8] NK: For me to sit here and say, “I wish no ill will on her,” that’s bullshit, I wish all ton of ill will on her even to this day. I think part of my saving grace in telling this story is just to throw her on the bus every time I tell the story. But I think for me, I had that easy way out because you know, my life and my theology and my belief systems said you’re in this for life.

When the theology gives you an out and when she doesn’t give you a choice, it makes it easy to walk away from. You know, I don’t know if she turned around and was like, “I’m so sorry, I’ll do everything to make this work.” You know, maybe my story at the time when you told me you got it figure out how to make this work or maybe I would have just been so broken and upset that I’m like, “you know what? Screw you, I’m done with this regardless.”

I had an easy way out to quit from that.

[0:15:58.2] RN: On the same note of that, you obviously came to a tipping point being a pastor. What was kind of the tipping point there that made you also quit and decide to move on?

[0:16:06.3] NK: That’s a great question, I think it was a combination of like just mass frustration which I think is a great indicator of you being involved in something that you don’t want to be in. Coupled with like the universe just getting louder and louder. I start to have people come up to me and saying “you got to do this, you got to get out.”

You know, and…

[0:16:24.2] RN: Get out and do what?

[0:16:26.3] NK: There was no path.

[0:16:27.2] RN: okay.

[0:16:28.7] NK: just get the hell out, yeah. I think if I had the path, it would have made it easier because at least it’s like “hey, I’m leaving something but I’m moving towards something else” but in this case it was just like get out.

[0:16:38.7] RN: Was it more so that the people that were kind of pushing you to get out or was it more of your internal feeling that this is not right.

[0:16:45.3] NK: I think it was the perfect alignment of both. It was like an internal thing that got louder and louder over the seven years. To the point where it was a nightmarish scream in my ears like get the hell out and then it was a combination of the situation getting so rough that there’s no sense to stay in and third party validation of people just coming up to you and saying, “what are you doing? I think it’s time for you to move on.”

All three perfect, I’m a slow learner, it takes years as you can see and a whole bunch of signs for me to make a decision but not anymore, I think I’ve learned it the hard way then but it was a combination of those three things that I was like, “okay, finally I’m going to do that.”

Still then I was scared shitless. I went to my now wife, amazing, beautiful, I mean, I love her to death, she was my girlfriend at the time or fiancée and I’m like, “I’m scared” and she basically turned to me and she’s like, “well, as you figured this out, I got your back. I got my corporate job, I do very well, I got your back. You have a few months to figure this out.”

[0:17:44.8] RN: That’s huge.

[0:17:45.5] NK: Yeah, because I didn’t have savings, I didn’t have anything at the time plus basically the divorce took everything from me, I was sleeping on a friend’s couch without a house, without – I leased a car without an income, without anything.

I think if I didn’t have her who is like, “you have a few months to figure this out, I got your back on that,” I don’t think I could have done it.

[0:18:04.4] RN: I think it’s powerful parallel for people listening that maybe have a job right now that they also have that internal feeling that this isn’t right, they know they want to start a business or they know there’s something else out there that they want to do.

Yet, they’re stuck with a comfortable salary, what advice would you give to them? Does the pain have to be as bad as it was for you?

[0:18:23.1] NK: No, I think if you’re just a really slow learner and you need the pain to get that bad to make something happen, I’m kind of like the Gary Feel, he’s like seven to two? Is that what he calls it?

[0:18:34.6] RN: After hours side hustle?

[0:18:36.9] NK: I think that that’s a much more intelligent approach than the cold turkey, burn your bridges, I get the motivation of people who are like, “hey, fuck it, leave your job, burn the bridges, never look back,” you have nowhere to go and you are in a very compromising position.

Not as fine if you’re a single young dude who is living at home. You know, your mom makes you dinner every night. Well okay, maybe. But if you have a family, you’re being irresponsible, you’re not taking care of anybody nor yourself, if you're going to put yourself out on a limb like that. Maybe certain people’s personality needs that, I don’t know. That’s arguable.

[0:19:12.9] RN: My thought is that, if you can’t make it happen from seven to two, just quitting your job and doing it from nine to five is not going to do it.

[0:19:18.7] NK: No, that’s a great point. I mean, I think it’s just a safest, easiest, smartest way and then to really like, I got to be honest, I don’t think most people who are in entrepreneurship are cut out to be entrepreneurs. Now, it’s been presented as the sexy thing, be your own boss and set your own hours and like no, it’s not that easy and most people don’t have what it takes but they’re being lied to, they’re saying, like.

Some people just need to shut the hell up, be thankful for your job and you know, we were talking about this earlier today that sometimes your passion can be fulfilled through your work, sometimes your passion will be fulfilled outside of your work and your work is what allows you to live that passion.

Now, I don’t know which one is right but I do think that there is this lie being perpetuated in entrepreneurial circles to say it’s really easy and follow your passion and make it work and I think for some people, that’s great but for others, it’s done more of a disservice than a service. I’m not sure it’s the best advice for everybody.

[0:20:16.0] RN: Yeah, it’s really, that’s what this podcast is really about, it’s debunking the myth that entrepreneurship is sexy, it’s overnight successes, for you, there’s a foundational piece that was – you went through a lot of pain to get to where you are now. Just on that note, what’s been – if you had to pinpoint, doesn’t have to be business, it can be personal, whatever.

I say failure very loosely here, just a low point, that’s really taught you the most, that you’re able to build off of.

[0:20:49.8] NK: It’s a culmination of many things. This situation where I realize like my marriage was not in a place I wanted to be in. Simultaneously, every business endeavor that I ever put energy to was failing.

I had years ago bought Rich Dad, Poor Dad and it told me that you don’t want earned income, you want passive income and you want businesses to generate revenue that put into investments that give you a passive portfolio styling. “Hell, I could do that” so you know, early on in the days when I was actually good and had a business that was making me money, I threw that all into investments, now unfortunately they were high yield, high risk investments.

They were producing a great income but it also means they’re really volatile and so all simultaneously with my marriage falling apart with my businesses not making any money simultaneously all my investments crashed at the same time.

There’s just a culmination of everything that could possibly go wrong in your life, goes wrong at the same time and then you’re like, “wow, I’m at the lowest I can go, there’s nowhere to go but up from here” and then you realize, well actually, there’s a whole other level of depth and suck and hell and shit and like, you’re like knee deep in shit and then you realize like”Oh my God, you know, there’s another level where I’m like waist high in shit and then shoulder high and now I’m drowning in it.” That was like the story of my life during the season.

The accumulation of all these things going wrong plus my own mental game was off now because I’m like, “I don’t have any confidence, I don’t know what’s going on.”

[0:22:16.7] RN: These stressful time.

[0:22:17.4] NK: “I’m stressed, what about my business, the whole thing,” I remember, I don’t remember the date to the T I wish I had. I remember literally be sitting in my office which was a converted bedroom, my corner IKEA desk, like birch black legs, I remember specifically, I’m sitting in front, looking at my computer, I look up at the clock and it says 1:17 AM.

Then I looked down and I’m googling the easiest way to take your life. Because I’m a coward, I don’t want the hard way, I knew the hard way, the whole like slicing of your wrist and all this other stuff that they show on TV. I want the easy way, that way looks painful and I literally just gotten to the point that I realized like “is it really worth continuing?

This battle’s not worth fighting, if this is what life is, I’m done with it.” I had to make a hard decision that day and I think the only thing that really kept me through in that moment was the fact that I lost my dad in 2005 and my mom is a widowed. I was her life and if I was gone, this woman would go through a hell that I probably can’t even understand or describe.

[0:23:15.5] RN: What made that moment so hard for you? What were you actually thinking at that time in terms of – I’m trying to figure out the pain that actually led you to type in those words into Google.

[0:23:28.1] NK: Life had become such a struggle that every moment felt painful and I didn’t see the light at the end of the tunnel, I’ve been in this perpetual Murphy’s law bout with the devil for god knows how long and I was just like, “I don’t see a way out, every moment is painful, I don’t see light at the end of the perpetual tunnel or whatever and if this is what life is going to be, I am out. I don’t know what the afterlife has for me but it certainly can’t be worse than this.”

[0:24:05.8] RN: Was it financial as well?

[0:24:06.8] NK: everything. I was ion a financial straight because all my investments had gone to zero. I didn’t know how I was going to pay the next bill. I was having this experience with my wife, I had a business that I was investing time, energy and effort into that wasn’t making me money, I was pastoring at a church that, it’s one of the most thankless jobs in the world.

Everyone has you on a pedestal and is judging you for every last thing that you do. There’s a feeling of being unappreciated, of no hope which is a scary place to be. No hope, no idea of how you were going to pay the bill, no idea of how this was all going to work out and it just so happened like on that particular night, it was like the culmination of everything in one swift moment.

At that point, it didn’t make sense to continue.

[0:24:56.0] RN: You thought about your mom, sounds like she’s what? She was your motivation to not follow through with it?

[0:25:00.2] NK: Right.

[0:25:00.6] RN: What happened from there, what happened the next day, how did you pull yourself out of that rut?

[0:25:05.7] NK: There are two things that I now realize in hind sight. One was I didn’t have a path out but what I did have were people who loved me dearly, when I say love, I mean love like graciously where there’s no like “hey, let me give you some advice.” Fuck you, I don’t need advice right now. It was just people who were like “Nick, we love you” and I can count them on one hand, it’s not like a big network of people, it is a small group of people just like “Nick we love you, we’re here for you, whatever you need, whenever you need it…”

[0:25:35.5] RN: Do they know how bad it was at the time?

[0:25:37.0] NK: No, I never talked about it but they knew it was bad, they didn’t know how bad it was.

[0:25:40.9] RN: But they could just see you withdraw.

[0:25:42.4] NK: Yeah, not in a good place.

[0:25:43.2] RN: Got it, yeah.

[0:25:44.3] NK: I think the worst thing you can do in that thing is like “hey, let me give you some advice,” people in that state don’t want advice, they just want to know that they’re not alone, that’s all I needed to know that I wasn’t alone.

There was that, that was happening on one level. Just support but like unconditional like support. Where basically you don’t need to do anything, you don’t need to give me anything, I’m here for you, I’m not here to give you advice, I’m literally here to be a shoulder to cry on if you needed it which I used often.

And the beautiful part about it is we didn’t talk about the stuff that was bad. It was just having people around that was good and then I don’t know where I read this but it came front of mind, I think it was a book or a movie or someone was reading a book in a movie.

But the line stood out to me where it says something along the lines of pain was meant to be felt and I think for so long, I’ve been running away from pain. The thought came to me said, “what if you just not in a rush? What if you allow yourself to experience the full brunt of this chaos?”

Because obviously the running out of it wasn’t helping you, “what if you just allow yourself to feel the deepest depth of this pain?”

[0:26:52.8] RN: Embracing it?

[0:26:53.4] NK: “Embracing it and not being a rush to get out” and I don’t know where that thought came from and why I remember this line in the movie that I saw probably years ago but I was like, “you know what? Okay.” I think life was meant to be experienced in the highest of high and lowest of lows.

If you only experience the exhilaration of the highs and you miss the lows, you’re not experiencing the full spectrum of life. Now, I do believe most of life is experience in the gap in between but the only way to really appreciate the gap in between is to have the fullness of both sides.

I said all right, then my mental game shifted to say “okay, I’m surrounded by people who love me, they’re not going anywhere and I’m not going anywhere.” I was okay with that fact. I don’t know where I’m going but I’m not going anywhere, I’m not going to end this thing. Simultaneous, I was like, I’m not in a rush to get out, let me just kind of embrace it, I’m not talking about the hyperbole of like let me learn the lessons that are to come of this.

Obviously there’s lessons to be learned but that wasn’t my intention. It was just like, let me experience.

[0:27:50.8] RN: Not the time, right?

[0:27:52.3] NK: Yeah. Let me just experience this for what it is, embrace it like you said. Then it was just slow over time. Day by day I think it started to get a little bit better.

[0:28:02.2] NK: Yeah and you have better days and you have worst days and things are good and things are bad but it was just like I think it was surrounded by love and the other big thing was not having a destination and being okay with that because my whole life has been driven by outcomes and goals and here’s where I need to be at this time if I am considered successful or whatever and for the first time, I was like, “I am not in a rush to go anywhere” and it was my first experience of again, I am not trying to get all Eckhart Tolle-ish but this idea of being present.

Of like this is the first time in my life where I don’t have a destination and unfortunately I am experiencing it in a bad way and what I mean by that I have to embrace pain whereas most people who teach be present or embrace the good that you have and be grateful. So I was experiencing it from a pain perspective but it was the first time in my life where I’m just like, “I am good with this and I am good not having a destination” and then very slowly overtime having these people around you and taking care of you and all of that.

[0:29:01.2] RN: For somebody in that same situation-ish maybe they’re not that to that extent but they’re just low and they don’t know what to do next. They don’t know where to go. They don’t know if it is going to get better, what advice would you give to them? Because I feel like you obviously had your mom on one side of you that was like, “I can’t do this to her” but then you also have those people that really helped you get through it. What’s your advice to somebody that is in that situation?

[0:29:28.1] NK: Hopefully and I wish I could say find your why like mine in that moment was my mother and then later became my father from the perspective of dad died and I don’t think he wanted me to see go this way either and I don’t know if the reasons are real or not but I think anyone needs to just come up with a reason why and not from a motivational standpoint but just enough to keep your mind on something bigger than yourself.

So that’s the one thing and then the second thing is like I want to assume that everybody has at least one person that they can turn to and I would say don’t hide it. Be honest with the people that you can afford to be honest with and say, “Hey man I am just going through this and I don’t need your advice and I don’t need your help. I just need to know that I am not going through this alone and that you are here if I need it” and hopefully, there is someone in your life who will be that person for you.

The reality is, maybe not everyone has that person and that scares me a little bit because if I didn’t have that people I don’t know but ideally if you find a little bit of a reason why, even if it is not a real reason why just something to get you out of yourself and then just one or two or three folks that you know you can lean on and be honest with them and say “I’m going through a hard time. I just need to know that you are here” I think that will not immediately solve the problem.

But it is going to put you in a place where you can start finding comfort and rest and healing and all of that.

[0:30:49.6] RN: Cool, thanks for sharing that man.

[0:30:51.0] NK: Yeah.

[0:30:51.3] RN: So just to bridge the gap from that moment where you’re getting all that terrible stuff is happening to you starting what you are doing now with Facebook ads, what lead you into the business you are in now?

[0:31:05.7] NK: I wish I could say like, “Hey I had this great idea and this is the way to go” I think it was being at the right place at the right time. The specific instance I remember very clearly was at this point I just left the church. It was the end of the year going into a new year. So December, Christmas was my last Sunday at the church.

[0:31:20.7] RN: What year just for context?

[0:31:21.9] NK: Yeah, I think it was 2013 – 2014.

[0:31:26.5] RN: Okay, so a few years ago.

[0:31:27.6] NK: A few years ago, yeah but I just remember I left the church and I made this decision that I am not going to do this anymore. I am scared spit-less and my fiancé at the time was like, “I got your back just figure this stuff out. Don’t worry too much” so -

[0:31:40.9] RN: So your advice is to find a fiancé that has a good corporate job, she makes all the money and then you can figure out what you want to do and have all the time and freedom.

[0:31:47.4] NK: Yeah, sugar mama, yeah that’s it. That’s the take away. We’ll call it a wrap but again, if I didn’t have that I don’t know what I would have done.

[0:31:54.6] RN: Yeah, so you had a little safety and comfort.

[0:31:55.6] NK: I did and I wish I could say, “Hey everybody you’re going to be okay if you just have that” but not everybody has that person so it’s not sage advice but I remember it was January I was on Facebook. Just prior to that actually one of our mutual friends, I had met with Jayson Gaignard and he’s like, “Look Nic, you just need to surround yourself with really good people who are going the same path as you”.

[0:32:14.8] RN: It sounds like Jayson.

[0:32:16.4] NK: It’s his kind of thing and so he’s like, “Hey you’re in Toronto?” like yeah, “Let me go introduce you to this entrepreneurial network called TEPP” Toronto Entrepreneurs of Passion and Purpose. I was like, “Cool” and they added me to the Facebook group and it was kind of an inactive group and there wasn’t much going on but one day like December, a guy posted there and he said, “I am having this event in Toronto” and he was a shtick.

It’s like, “Look I’ve spend over a $100,000 building my network and spending money in education. I want to just take all of that and translate it into a one day event around marketing” and stuff like that and here’s the deal, it cost I think five or 600 bucks but here’s the deal, you come for free and only at the end of the day it felt like it was worth it, you can write a check for us or pay the fee at that point. If you didn’t think it was worth it then don’t worry about it.

And I’m like, “Hell I’m going and I am going to say it sucked no matter what” right? Because I didn’t have the 500 bucks so I’m like, “If you are going to make an offer like that I am going to take advantage of that offer” but I showed up and it was a friend of mine, now one of my closest friends, Giovanni Marsico. He was holding his first ever event that he called Flight School and here’s the full circle though it was just wild, it was held on a Sunday morning at a venue called the Berkeley Church.

And it was a converted church of all places so it’s still stained glass windows, it was used for dance clubs and parties now but it was a church with stained glass windows A frame building on a Sunday morning and I’m there and I am at Berkeley Church. I’m like, “What the hell is going on” at an event, an event called Arch Angel Flight School of all things and now I didn’t think about that at the time. I am thinking of it now that this is a weird coincidence.

So I’m sitting there and at this point on the online side of things, I had gotten pretty good with Facebook ads but my assumption was so had everybody else in the world. So I never really talked about it. It never was a big deal.

[0:33:57.6] RN: Were you doing it for your –

[0:33:58.9] NK: For myself, yeah and because I had a little bit of success in it, I had the random person come up to me and like, “Hey can you help me with this?” consulting, not real consulting but that and so I remember sitting in the room and one of the things that you do at the event is 126 talks and so what 126 talks is rather than everyone just doing networking he allows you to go on the stage and for a 126 seconds offer a valuable piece of insight that you think it could help everybody in the room and that was the way that you introduce yourself.

So rather than like, “Hey I’m Nick. I do Facebook ads. If you need to Facebook ads come to me” it was teach something on Facebook ads I can help everybody. It is just a brilliant way to get people networking and introducing yourself without being all weird about it. So someone had gotten up and I think the question was asked and I had lined up for the 126 talk at this point and someone got up and basically asked the question. “So how many people in this room use Facebook ads to grow your business?”

And to my surprise, well maybe not even to my surprise, 80% of the hands went up including my own. So I was like, “Oh sweet! Kindred spirits here” and the second question they asked is “how many of you found Facebook ads profitable?” and my hand was the only one that stayed up and all of a sudden it was like a light bulb moment. A halo moment in Berkeley Church on a Sunday morning at an event called Arch Angel Flight School. A light bulb went off and said this is what you are going to do.

So right there on the spot I changed my 126 talk to be more about Facebook ads. I got on the stage to talk 126 seconds about Facebook ads. I got pegged as the Facebook ninja.

[0:35:27.5] RN: That was really perspective insight to be able to gather that information, that data in the room at the time and then say, “Okay I am going to flip the switch here” I am not a Facebook guy.

[0:35:38.1] NK: Yeah, well there is literally two people in front of me and I always call myself a digital marketing consultant because I thought it sounded cool but when I went up there and introduced myself as a Facebook ad strategist. It just made sense and that was the beginning man and the rest I’d say is history but again right place, right time. I don’t know how the stars aligned for me that way but yeah on a Sunday morning that Arch Angel event, Flight School in Berkeley Church, I became a Facebook ad strategist and then of course there is more to it after the fact.

I am like, “Okay well let me figure this stuff out what does it really mean” but what I did know is that I had the skillset and there was an industry and a market that had a need and those two matched.

[0:36:16.3] RN: It finally gave you a focus too right?

[0:36:18.5] NK: It did give me a focus.

[0:36:18.9] RN: So you’re like, “Now this is what I am doing. Now this is my only goal”.

[0:36:21.6] NK: And I only had to figure out how do I bring my skills into the market place. That was my “how do I do that?” and if I could figure out what that was, I’d be in business.

[0:36:30.5] RN: So on a tactical level after you decided that mentally this is what I’m doing, how did you actually start growing the business?

[0:36:36.9] NK: So the first few things is like what everybody does, it’s like, “Hey man, can I help you out with your Facebook ads? Let me just do it for the testimonial” right? Or let me just do it and then I’m like, “This sucks” because people want your services for free aren’t the greatest clients so then I’m like forget this. I’m not going to be dragged, I am not going to start from the bottom. I am going straight to the top man. So I made this dream list of everyone that was a hero to me.

And when I say hero, people that I followed in the internet marketing world or people who are doing some great things.

[0:37:03.6] RN: Big name influencer type people.

[0:37:05.0] NK: Exactly. I made this short list of like, “If I could actually work with ideal clients, who would they be?” and then I put those on a list and then I said, “If those are in fact the people then how can I work with them? What is the shortest path to work with them?” Now keep in mind, this is still a few years ago so accessing people via social media was a lot easier than it was now to direct messaging them on Twitter or Facebook but here’s my shtick.

It was basically I was going to reach out to all 10 of these people and I was going to say, “Hey these are my fees” and basically the shtick that was poised to me from Giovanni was like, “These are my fees, this is what it cost. I know you don’t know me. Let me just run this campaign for you and you only pay me after you got a result” and two of the 10 people said yes. So it put me in a corner. I thought that was important because it wasn’t –

My previous pitch was like, “Hey man let me do this for free but give me a testimonial” because then the value is not there but if I said, “Hey these are my fees but you only have to pay after” the value is maintained.

[0:37:58.1] RN: I’ve got a question on this because just for a little context of where we’re at, we’re actually at the San Diego Convention Center. You are in town for Todd Herman’s event, 90 day Year. Michael Gavin who is actually in the room with us, we saw him he is a different kind of approach to this. I’m sure you know because he basically – so he’s got the skill set of being an amazing videographer so the way he got into it was reaching out to Tim Ferris or actually Charlie who was his assistant at the time and said, “Hey I will film it for free” right?

Which was kind of his first big break through, how do you decide whether or not too – obviously the free route wasn’t the right route for you. For somebody at home thinking which route is the best, what’s your advice there?

[0:38:42.6] NK: My route, forget Gavin’s that is a stupid route. No, he’s a friend of ours so we’re just joking around with him. I don’t think anybody values for free anymore. Back in the day when Gavin did it, it was a smart move.

[0:38:55.3] RN: Yeah, it was seven or eight years ago right?

[0:38:57.0] NK: Yeah, I think it was a smart move because everybody was pitching probably Tim and like “hey man” and being an investor like his in the world of pitches and everyone was pitching him. So if someone comes to him like, “Let me do this for free in exchange for a testimonial or whatever” that was a good play then but I think now and I get people pitching me all the time, “Hey man can I just work for you for free” and I’m like, “That’s a more pain in my ass than hiring you as a vendor and paying you good fees but not having to worry about the value exchange here”.

And so for me I think it was just right at that time where people were probably reaching out to these people a bunch of free offers and it just didn’t make sense. It didn’t work out and so for me, I think one of the things that I wanted to very clear early on in the game was my position in the market place. I never wanted to be positioned as free or low end. It was always premium so that was another unintended – I didn’t realize it at the time.

But I realized subconsciously that that was important to me and that was important for me to roll out. So I think people, I have a conversation with Todd all the time about this and Todd and me now because of what Todd told me was like, “Nic if I ever looked to hire a consultant and their fees are less than 15K I’m out because it means you suck” right? “It means your fees are not – if you are not willing to ask for 15K at least for a consulting, you’re not even in my realm of consideration. “

[0:40:18.8] RN: You don’t value your skills as much as you need to.

[0:40:21.4] NK: Right or you’re just not really that good. One or the other, so I think that played a little bit of a role into it. I think when I want to go after a higher level folks, higher level folks operate on that level and so free means cheap and not good, whatever. Paid means good but of course you want to make an offer they can’t refuse or a really good offer that is heavily weighted in their favor with no risk and that was the offer to me and it forces you.

Dean Jackson actually says even if you don’t do that how would you conduct your business if you only got paid after you’ve delivered a result? It forces you to A, make sure you have the chops to deliver and then if you don’t, to be okay with not getting paid for that and sorting that out somehow.

[0:41:05.0] RN: Yeah I was going to ask because the offer you make these guys that are on your dream list, is they’d only pay you after you showed results. Did you feel pressure there or where you pretty confident?

[0:41:17.6] NK: Oh hell no.

[0:41:17.8] RN: Were you pretty confident that you could get the results?

[0:41:20.0] NK: No, no, no but I mean -

[0:41:22.2] RN: But were you skilled enough at this time to go into it and be like, “I’ve got this shit”?

[0:41:26.1] NK: It was a combination of both. On the one hand, I have a skill set that I feel is stronger than a lot of other people out there.

[0:41:31.4] RN: But if it is a bust –

[0:41:32.3] NK: Yeah and my reputation is on the line and all that kind of stuff. So I did feel an immense amount of pressure but I was like, “Well here is where the rubber meets the road” right? Either sink or swim. Unfortunately, it was more than swim. They went really, really well and again, if they didn’t go really, really well who knows what the story would tell about my business today. I realized that that level, there is nobody sweeping Facebook ads saying:

“Hey I am looking for Facebook ad strategist” like friends talk to friends and the only people who do business with each other is based on a referral from someone else. So it was important to me that this worked out.

[0:42:06.2] RN: It was a beautiful way to get into it right? It is going premium and going to your dream guys because if that does work, those two guys will probably fund the rest of your business 20 years to come right?

[0:42:16.8] NK: And you know it is this funny progression where heroes become clients who then become colleagues who then become students. So it’s funny that now some of these people sending people to be in our training, you know I did a post yesterday because I was teaching right in this room that we’re in on Facebook ads and people don’t even know but Brian Smith walked in the back door. Now if you don’t know who Brian Smith is, he’s the founder of Ugg Boots.

He walks in the back door and he sits on the floor because every seat was taken. Nobody knew who he was. I knew who he was and he was sitting there taking notes at my training and then he comes to me, he’s like, “I would love to buy your new book. Where can I get it?” I’m like, “This is a billionaire”.

[0:42:57.4] RN: Yeah, I didn’t know that. That’s crazy.

[0:42:58.7] NK: Yeah who’s built an amazing successful brand with Ugg Boots.

[0:43:04.1] RN: What was he doing here?

[0:43:05.1] NK: He was learning about Facebook ads. Honest to God, he knew that this was a breakout room for Facebook ads so he walked right in, he sat on the floor because there was no seats left, he pulls out a pen and a paper and starts taking notes and I never knew him – knew him in the past. I’ve met him a few times. He is not a hero of mine but this is someone I greatly look up to. He’s built an amazing international brand that even if you don’t use the product, you know the product.

Not too many people can say that and here he is taking notes about Facebook ads and he is taking a picture of my white board and he is asking to buy the book. I’m like, “What just happened here?” so yeah, I don’t know where we were going with that but the whole thing is like yeah, my vision was always to work premium as much as I could and work with the best of the best and so I set that intention. I moved towards it and then that led to more and more and brought us to where we are today gracefully.

I am so appreciative of that but I think and I am not saying that is the best route for everybody. Not everybody needs to be a premium service.

[0:44:05.0] RN: So coming from that Berkeley Church, that first time where you’re like I am going to be a Facebook ad strategist to now, what has been the toughest part? Because it sounds like from this conversation is that it went pretty smoothly for the most part but what were the toughest parts at the beginning?

[0:44:21.1] NK: Well the whole thing. Whenever you endeavor to something new there’s learning so everything suck and it still sucks. Not everything but there is learning along the way so everything from how to communicate with these high level folks or something, I learned very quickly what I liked to do and what I don’t like to do. So early on is, “Hey we’ll run your Facebook ads and we’ll help with your funnels and we’ll help with your copy” and very quickly I was like, “No I can’t do this”.

You know I got burned along the way a few times. I lost money along the way, I hurt people along the way because I made promises that I couldn’t keep and so no matter what you do to try and reconcile that, whether it’s refunds or whatever, people remember when you let them down. I let people down and –

[0:44:58.9] RN: In terms of what? Like performance in terms of –

[0:45:01.4] NK: Performance or whatever it might be or even if it was a miscommunication. One particular guy in general, I am not going to mention his name because it is not a great story, he gave me the KPI’s and we’re working towards this KPI’s and we hit all of the KPI’s but he wasn’t making the sales on the backend. So we were delivering leads to certain costs and certain volume. He wasn’t delivering it on the backend and he made me the enemy.

[0:45:21.7] RN: To be clear for your service, you’re responsible for the front end?

[0:45:25.9] NK: Right, generating leads, yeah.

[0:45:27.0] RN: Exactly so on the back end of the funnel you have upsells, the offer converting, etcetera, etcetera so that’s out of your control.

[0:45:34.6] NK: Completely out of my control but I didn’t communicate that at the time. Now I do and it’s very clear but back then I didn’t and so I am like, “Hey this is great! We are getting results for this guy” and then it didn’t end so well and I didn’t know but he was on my website as a testimonial and so the problem is when you deal with high level people like that and they see that person, they reach out to that person and they’re like, “Hey how was your experience with Nic?” and he’s like, “That was a total flip job. He was terrible”.

And he then reached out to me and he’s like, “Take my stuff done off your site if you don’t want to continue hurting your brand” I was like, “Oh man, I didn’t even know” whatever so there’s those kind of situations. So there is the growing pains and then there is the failure pains because you let people down. There is the pains of figuring it all out and losing money and trying things and that still happens to this day.

[0:46:25.2] RN: Yep, how do you navigate that with that experience in particular? Did you let that affect your mindset or it negatively affected you?

[0:46:33.8] NK: I am getting better now at not taking things so personally. Part of that is because I try not to get exposed to that. I will let my right hand deal with all of that and some of the instructions are like, “Hey if I don’t need to see it I don’t want to see it”. If there’s fires to put out that don’t need me involved please don’t tell me about it because I find that it does affect me personally. So yeah in that particular situation I am like, “Oh my God have I done this to anybody else?”

What are people thinking of me and maybe I should not do this? The question comes up all the time and we actually shouldn’t do this anymore. So yeah, every time something like this comes, my immediate thing is “Oh shit. I am such a letdown, what a stupid mistake” and then I try to get as quickly to the “what’s the learning here and how do I readjust.” So certain things from now is from that experience, I am very clear about what I do and what I don’t do and we communicate those right up to front.

Now we get to a point even in our business where we will do a funnel audit from somebody before we even take them on as a client to make sure that they’re back end number are in fact strong and converting not because I just don’t want that to be that miscommunication again where even if you’re like, “Hey man, you’re in charge of the sales, I’m in charge of the leads” and they’re like, “Yeah of course. Yeah we got the sales you got the leads. We’re all good”.

Even if they say that but the sales don’t come then there’s still that weird feeling involved. So all of that are just small pivots that I’ve had to make to readjust how we communicate things along the way to make sure that we don’t try to get into those types of experiences over and over again.

[0:48:01.4] RN: Got you. So looking forward, you are obviously focused on Facebook now and Facebook is still in terms of its advertising platform, it’s still relatively young right? They are continuing to improve it all the time. So are you looking in the future saying Facebook is what I do? This is going to be my strength or are you looking at lead gen as a whole, saying I don’t care how I get the leads? I am going to do everything.

[0:48:24.7] NK: Yeah, I am interested in its very core like I am very agnostic to Facebook. It just so happens that Facebook is in my opinion the best direct response marketing channel on the planet and so that’s why we use that to execute the principles that we do but I am at the core. I’m more interested in social advertising and maybe not even social advertising but how are our consumers and people consuming content and buying things? How are they doing that? What is causing them to do that?

[0:48:51.8] RN: What do you look at to figure that stuff out?

[0:48:53.6] NK: I mean I wish I could say it is more intelligent than actually just seeing where people are spending most of their time.

[0:48:57.7] RN: Being aware at?

[0:48:58.3] NK: Yeah but the way the desktop computer is coming to an end and you don’t need massive data to tell you that. You just look at your own behavior. If you can be on your phone 90% of the time and maybe a laptop the other 10%, that’s just people’s behavior now. A lot of people are spending way more time on social than any other type of platforms currently. So if that’s the case and that’s where they are and that’s where they’re heading out and that’s where your buyers are.

Or your customers or your potential customers, then what do you need to do to interact with them in a way that is socially congruent, contextually congruent more specifically and then how do you engage with them in a way that you are not being a douche or an over aggressive sales person but still be able to build your business using these platforms. That is what jazzes me up. Facebook I just happen to love because it is the thing right now.

But if it ends up being something else then so be it. So it’s this fine balance of “being heralded” as one of the top Facebook guys in the world but not pigeon holding yourself and saying this is all we do that’s realizing that there is a bigger context on Facebook. It just happens to be a great platform.

[0:50:02.0] RN: If something else comes out, a search taking off you are there because that is where the attention is.

[0:50:06.6] NK: Yeah but we’re there from – I pride myself from being a slow adopter. So I’ll sit back and let people spend the money and let the industry decide and then if they do end up deciding that that’s a better way to go then we’ll jump in but that’s why for the longest time people say, “Well why aren’t you on Snap? Why aren’t you advertising on Snapchat?” I’m like, “I don’t it’s too early”.

[0:50:24.9] RN: Let them work out the bugs.

[0:50:25.6] NK: Let them work out the bugs, let’s see if people are really buying on there. Let’s see if they have a great advertising platform you spend the money.

[0:50:31.5] RN: You could burn a lot of money seeing if Snap works right?

[0:50:34.6] NK: Yeah and many people did because people said, “You know this is the best thing in the world” okay but I am going to let you decide and then if the industry says it is in fact great and there’s some longevity in it then I’m going to move in there but for the time being, we are just going what’s proven to work and we are not going to risk our or our client’s advertising dollars figuring out if the next platform is hot or not.

[0:50:57.3] RN: Makes sense. So being on the Fail On podcast, the whole goal is to get people activated and actually trying new things and doing stuff and getting outside of their comfort zone. So with that said, what is a challenge that you could lay down for us and the listeners to go out in the world and actually implement, to get a little bit uncomfortable that we could report back to you?

[0:51:17.8] NK: Well there is two things. There is one very easy thing because if you make it little complicated everybody bitches, “I am not going to do it, it’s too hard” I think the better challenge would be something that can actually move the needle for you would be what I did with my dream list. If you’re selling something or has a service or something that they offer somebody and it doesn’t have to be dream big names or anything.

But I would say go out to people and make an offer they can’t refuse like that and then just put yourself in an uncomfortable position of being forced to deliver a result and they only get paid after the result is in fact delivered. That would be the one I would suggest to do because I have done it so I can say I did it and I can’t pansy out of it and because it actually moved the needle for me so that’s one and then the other side of it is also on a very practical thing and I think Noah Kagan gave this example but I did it as soon as I heard them do that.

[0:52:06.9] RN: The Starbucks discount? Yeah.

[0:52:07.8] NK: Yeah but not just Starbucks like anywhere you know you can’t get it. So if you are in the retail outlet or you are dealing with any kind of service and not in a douche-y way but like you know just ask for it. Just do something that you wouldn’t normally do. So if that’s to ask for a discount in a place you know that doesn’t give a discount. If it is trying to get the phone number of someone with the opposite sex with no intention to do anything with it except you being uncomfortable about doing it. If it is going in the middle of the mall and singing a song out loud or whatever –

[0:52:35.5] RN: As long as you are single, married guys –

[0:52:38.4] NK: Yeah, no let’s avoid that but yeah something as simple I think because that’s really like me and you can go out into the streets right now and do that but again, I think the bigger needle mover would be for the person to do what I did and make some offers to people that you might be afraid to make offers to and you’ll see. If you can deliver on the goods, it will be a game changer for you.

[0:52:59.7] RN: And if you can’t, you’re going to get better right?

[0:53:01.8] NK: Exactly, yeah.

[0:53:03.0] RN: Cool man. Well I appreciate it, thanks and we’ll catch you –

[0:53:06.4] NK: Of course, it’s an absolute pleasure man.

[0:53:07.8] RN: We’ll catch you next time.

[0:53:08.7] NK: All right, thank you.


[0:53:12.5] RN: All right, so you can find Nicholas @nicholaskusmich on Twitter and of course, all the links and resources Nick and I discussed including more information on his book, Give and Business, can be found at the page specifically for this episode that’s at and keep an eye out for the next episode to follow this one. We’ll be sitting down with one of my favorite people, Cory Worth.

Cory’s has had a successful exit building and selling a digital agency that actually focused on selling to Fortune 500 companies. He is currently the founder of Digital Blue Moon, a boutique digital agency in Toronto that is disrupting the old multi-vendor agency model that most people are familiar with. Cory has seen a ton of ups and downs and he shares why selling his first company was one of his best moments of his life but actually led to a really dark place. You don’t want to miss it.

And as I continue to build this project with the simple goal of getting people to once and for all decide that they are going to fail their way to creating an inspired life, if you could do one thing to support the cause I’d be super grateful. When you click on the subscribe button and leave a rating and quick review, this allows the podcast to simply be visible to more people. To rate and review the podcast, it’s super easy, just go to or


[0:54:46.1] ANNOUNCER: That’s all for this episode of The Fail On Podcast. For more resources, show notes and action items to help you find success in your failures, sign up for our mailing list at

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